Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

Expand Messages
  • Br Benjamin Assisi
    ... dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes? .
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
    • 0 Attachment

      While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
      be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

      I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
      is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
      What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

      Regards,


      George


      dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?
      .
    • Sean
      I agree. All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        I agree.

        All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to
        define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does that define the wind.

        Pax!

        Sean


        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey George
        >
        > >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
        > this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.
        >
        > But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
        > everyone) finds adequate.<<<
        >
        > Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
        > taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.
        >
        > As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
        > talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
        > small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
        > the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
        > academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
        > debate.
        >
        > Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
        > believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
        > concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
        > with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
        > Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
        > to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
        > the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
        > Existentialism with a capitol "E"?
        >
        > Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
        > those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
        > Gnosticism.
        >
        > PMCV
        >
      • pmcvflag
        Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 20, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Hey George and Ben

          George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
          the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
          left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
          Mandaeans?<<<

          Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

          Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
          is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
          (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
          study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
          that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

          As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
          little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
          of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
          the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
          Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
          can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
          can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
          particular group.

          Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
          other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
          this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
          we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
          which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

          Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
          question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
          Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
          removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
          states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
          Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
          accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
          appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
          accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
          theological influence from Islam.

          Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
          as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
          interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
          imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
          could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
          view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
          as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
          ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
          within a single cultural venue.

          PMCV
        • George
          I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 23, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
            Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
            as well.

            This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
            later being a follower of John the Baptist.

            Regards,

            George
          • pmcvflag
            George ... as well.
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              George

              >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
              as well.<<<

              I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
              Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
              doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

              Anyway, more important to our subject....

              >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
              Sadducees.<<<

              You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
              the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
              Ben.

              The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
              Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
              out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
              very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
              of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
              obviously far more possible.

              To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
              reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
              Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
              Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
              descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
              related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
              they look to be very Gnostic.

              Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
              Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
              mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
              shed some light on the subject.

              PMCV
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

                Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                lacking). Anyone want to help?

                PMCV

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                >
                > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                around,
                > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                > relatives.
                >
                > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                > philosophical sense.
                >
                > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                >
                > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                do
                > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                >
                >
                > Thalprin
                >
              • thalprin
                PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
                  you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                  historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
                  and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                  the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
                  to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                  know/assure that we're being thorough.

                  Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                  illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                  tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
                  think I'd enjoy to help.

                  Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                  thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                  add (if anything).

                  Thalprin


                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

                  http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                  (Check out that 3rd category,)

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


                  Some Codex:
                  (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                  are really such exceptional works,)

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



                  http://www.vetuslatina.org/

                  http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

                  http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

                  http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                  > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                  >
                  > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                  > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                  > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                  > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                  >
                  > PMCV
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                  > around,
                  > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                  > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                  family
                  > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                  > > relatives.
                  > >
                  > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                  > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                  > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                  > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                  > > philosophical sense.
                  > >
                  > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                  > >
                  > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                  > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                  > do
                  > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thalprin
                  > >
                  >
                • thalprin
                  ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                    project
                    > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                    > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                    possible,
                    > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                    > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                    links
                    > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                    > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                    >
                    > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                    > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                    > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                    I
                    > think I'd enjoy to help.
                    >
                    > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                    > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                    > add (if anything).
                    >
                    > Thalprin
                    >
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                    >
                    > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                    > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                    >
                    >
                    > Some Codex:
                    > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                    > are really such exceptional works,)
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                    >


                    Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                    have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                    >
                    > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                    >
                    > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                    >
                    > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                    chart.
                    > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                    > >
                    > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                    > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                    graphic
                    > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                    is
                    > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                    > >
                    > > PMCV
                    > >
                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                    > > around,
                    > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                    see/consider
                    > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                    > family
                    > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                    a/o
                    > > > relatives.
                    > > >
                    > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                    > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                    partly
                    > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                    be
                    > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                    > > > philosophical sense.
                    > > >
                    > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                    > > >
                    > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                    a
                    > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                    to
                    > > do
                    > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                    examples.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Thalprin
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • George
                    Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                      make minor comments about things that could be very important
                      later.

                      I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                      of a Sadducee family.

                      PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                      possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                      terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                      This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                      and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                      comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                      certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                      to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                      the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                      he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                      there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                      This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                      to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                      way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                      In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                      "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                      the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                      Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                      Regards,

                      George
                    • pmcvflag
                      George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        George

                        >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                        make minor comments about things that could be very important
                        later.

                        <snipped for brevity>

                        This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                        to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                        way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                        Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                        Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                        we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                        again.

                        >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                        "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                        the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                        Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                        I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                        relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                        response and maybe forgot?

                        PMCV
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.