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Re: Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey George ... this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that everyone (or most everyone) finds adequate.
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 16, 2008
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      Hey George

      >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
      this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

      But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
      everyone) finds adequate.<<<

      Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
      taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.

      As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
      talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
      small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
      the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
      academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
      debate.

      Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
      believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
      concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
      with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
      Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
      to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
      the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
      Existentialism with a capitol "E"?

      Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
      those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
      Gnosticism.

      PMCV
    • Br Benjamin Assisi
      ... dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes? .
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
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        While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
        be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

        I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
        is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
        What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

        Regards,


        George


        dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?
        .
      • Sean
        I agree. All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
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          I agree.

          All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to
          define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does that define the wind.

          Pax!

          Sean


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey George
          >
          > >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
          > this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.
          >
          > But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
          > everyone) finds adequate.<<<
          >
          > Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
          > taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.
          >
          > As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
          > talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
          > small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
          > the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
          > academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
          > debate.
          >
          > Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
          > believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
          > concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
          > with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
          > Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
          > to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
          > the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
          > Existentialism with a capitol "E"?
          >
          > Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
          > those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
          > Gnosticism.
          >
          > PMCV
          >
        • pmcvflag
          Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 20, 2008
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            Hey George and Ben

            George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
            the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
            left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
            Mandaeans?<<<

            Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

            Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
            is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
            (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
            study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
            that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

            As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
            little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
            of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
            the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
            Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
            can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
            can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
            particular group.

            Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
            other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
            this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
            we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
            which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

            Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
            question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
            Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
            removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
            states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
            Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
            accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
            appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
            accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
            theological influence from Islam.

            Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
            as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
            interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
            imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
            could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
            view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
            as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
            ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
            within a single cultural venue.

            PMCV
          • George
            I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 23, 2008
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              I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
              Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
              as well.

              This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
              later being a follower of John the Baptist.

              Regards,

              George
            • pmcvflag
              George ... as well.
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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                George

                >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                as well.<<<

                I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
                Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
                doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

                Anyway, more important to our subject....

                >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                Sadducees.<<<

                You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
                the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
                Ben.

                The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
                Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
                out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
                very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
                of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
                obviously far more possible.

                To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
                reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
                Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
                Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
                descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
                related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
                they look to be very Gnostic.

                Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
                Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
                mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
                shed some light on the subject.

                PMCV
              • pmcvflag
                Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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                  Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                  Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

                  Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                  having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                  tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                  lacking). Anyone want to help?

                  PMCV

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                  around,
                  > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                  > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                  > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                  > relatives.
                  >
                  > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                  > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                  > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                  > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                  > philosophical sense.
                  >
                  > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                  >
                  > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                  > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                  do
                  > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                  >
                  >
                  > Thalprin
                  >
                • thalprin
                  PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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                    PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
                    you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                    historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
                    and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                    the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
                    to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                    know/assure that we're being thorough.

                    Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                    illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                    tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
                    think I'd enjoy to help.

                    Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                    thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                    add (if anything).

                    Thalprin


                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

                    http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                    (Check out that 3rd category,)

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


                    Some Codex:
                    (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                    are really such exceptional works,)

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



                    http://www.vetuslatina.org/

                    http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

                    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

                    http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                    > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                    >
                    > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                    > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                    > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                    > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                    >
                    > PMCV
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                    > around,
                    > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                    > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                    family
                    > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                    > > relatives.
                    > >
                    > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                    > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                    > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                    > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                    > > philosophical sense.
                    > >
                    > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                    > >
                    > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                    > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                    > do
                    > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thalprin
                    > >
                    >
                  • thalprin
                    ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                      project
                      > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                      > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                      possible,
                      > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                      > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                      links
                      > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                      > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                      >
                      > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                      > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                      > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                      I
                      > think I'd enjoy to help.
                      >
                      > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                      > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                      > add (if anything).
                      >
                      > Thalprin
                      >
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                      >
                      > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                      > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                      >
                      >
                      > Some Codex:
                      > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                      > are really such exceptional works,)
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                      >


                      Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                      have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                      >
                      > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                      >
                      > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                      >
                      > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                      chart.
                      > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                      > >
                      > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                      > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                      graphic
                      > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                      is
                      > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                      > >
                      > > PMCV
                      > >
                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                      > > around,
                      > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                      see/consider
                      > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                      > family
                      > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                      a/o
                      > > > relatives.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                      > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                      partly
                      > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                      be
                      > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                      > > > philosophical sense.
                      > > >
                      > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                      > > >
                      > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                      a
                      > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                      to
                      > > do
                      > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                      examples.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Thalprin
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • George
                      Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
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                        Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                        make minor comments about things that could be very important
                        later.

                        I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                        of a Sadducee family.

                        PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                        possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                        terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                        This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                        and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                        comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                        certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                        to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                        the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                        he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                        there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                        This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                        to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                        way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                        In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                        "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                        the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                        Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                        Regards,

                        George
                      • pmcvflag
                        George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
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                          George

                          >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                          make minor comments about things that could be very important
                          later.

                          <snipped for brevity>

                          This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                          to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                          way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                          Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                          Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                          we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                          again.

                          >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                          "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                          the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                          Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                          I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                          relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                          response and maybe forgot?

                          PMCV
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