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Re: [Gnosticism2] A fresh start

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  • Br Benjamin Assisi
    what are your views? ... -- Better than one thousand verses Where no profit wings the word, Is one solitary stanza Bringing peace of mind when heard.
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 16, 2008
      what are your views?

      On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:35 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
      Time has passed, passions have cooled, so I thought I might
      join in discussion once again.

      Are there any questions about my views that members feel I need
      to address before I start introducing a new topic here or there?

      Regards,


      George




      --
      Better than one thousand verses
      Where no profit wings the word,
      Is one solitary stanza
      Bringing peace of mind when heard.
    • George
      Br. Assisi: What are my views? Well, that is a wide open question, yes? I would say that my principle view is that the various ancient Christian and/or Jewish
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 20, 2008
        Br. Assisi:

        What are my views? Well, that is a wide open question, yes?

        I would say that my principle view is that the various ancient
        Christian and/or Jewish groups that we group together as gnostics
        are a SUB-set of all Gnostic schools.

        While elements such as "Aeons" are shared amongst these ancient
        groups, they are not the defining element for gnosticism.

        For me, the defining element is that by coming to know the
        great source of all life and mind, one no longer needs
        the shell of mortal body - - whether this is discovered while still
        in a mortal body, or as some sort of spirit after leaving
        the body.

        Regards,

        George

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Br Benjamin Assisi"
        <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
        >
        > what are your views?
        >
        > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:35 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Time has passed, passions have cooled, so I thought I might
        > > join in discussion once again.
        > >
        > > Are there any questions about my views that members feel I need
        > > to address before I start introducing a new topic here or there?
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > >
        > > George
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Better than one thousand verses
        > Where no profit wings the word,
        > Is one solitary stanza
        > Bringing peace of mind when heard.
        >
      • Br Benjamin Assisi
        hi George, so are you saying, the mechanics of the spiritual practises of these groups are more important than the history in defining them? isnt that heresy
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
          hi George, so are you saying, the mechanics of the spiritual practises of these groups are more important than the history in defining them?

          isnt that heresy in this group? lol

          maybe I misunderstand

          On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:11 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
          Br. Assisi:

          What are my views?  Well, that is a wide open question, yes?

          I would say that my principle view is that the various ancient
          Christian and/or Jewish groups that we group together as gnostics
          are a SUB-set of all Gnostic schools.

          While elements such as "Aeons" are shared amongst these ancient
          groups, they are not the defining element for gnosticism.

          For me, the defining element is that by coming to know the
          great source of all life and mind, one no longer needs
          the shell of mortal body - - whether this is discovered while still
          in a mortal body, or as some sort of spirit after leaving
          the body.

          Regards,

          George

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Br Benjamin Assisi"
          <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
          >
          > what are your views?
          >
          > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:35 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Time has passed, passions have cooled, so I thought I might
          > > join in discussion once again.
          > >
          > > Are there any questions about my views that members feel I need
          > > to address before I start introducing a new topic here or there?
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > >
          > > George
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Better than one thousand verses
          > Where no profit wings the word,
          > Is one solitary stanza
          > Bringing peace of mind when heard.
          >



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          --
          Better than one thousand verses
          Where no profit wings the word,
          Is one solitary stanza
          Bringing peace of mind when heard.
        • pmcvflag
          George ... Not so wide, since the focus of this forum is quite specific. In that context the real question would have to be.... what are your views as they
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
            George

            >>>What are my views? Well, that is a wide open question, yes?<<<

            Not so wide, since the focus of this forum is quite specific. In
            that context the real question would have to be.... what are your
            views as they pertain to the focus of this forum? ;)

            >>>I would say that my principle view is that the various ancient
            Christian and/or Jewish groups that we group together as gnostics
            are a SUB-set of all Gnostic schools.<<<

            For the sake of this forum we use the disambiguation more generally
            accepted in the academic community. This is simply to refine a
            shared lingo for the sake of conversation. I believe we are all
            aware of the old maxim that a good teacher knows how to speak in the
            language of the community being spoken to, so I am sure you are
            making every attempt to genuinely learn our vocabulary. In this
            forum, the capitol "G" Gnosticism refers specifically to the
            category of traditional groups defined in the field of Nag Hammadi
            studies. I state this because I was unsure whether the fact that you
            switched the common noun and the proper noun in your sentence above
            was intentional or just a typo.

            As I stated previously, we can adjust terms slightly here and there
            for the sake of conversation but the base method needs to remain the
            same. After all, this is one of the last forums on the entire net
            that keeps this focus. Disregarding our focus in conversation here
            trolling as Br Joseph states in one of Ben's forums.

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AGCA_gnostics/message/3587

            Like the Mandaeans, we are an endangered group. I'm sure you would
            rather foster our focus rather than attempt to destroy our identity.

            PMCV
          • Br Benjamin Assisi
            how on earth do you see the golden dawn related to the focus of this group? ... -- Better than one thousand verses Where no profit wings the word, Is one
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
              how on earth do you see the golden dawn related to the focus of this group?

              On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 6:25 PM, pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              George

              >>>What are my views? Well, that is a wide open question, yes?<<<

              Not so wide, since the focus of this forum is quite specific. In
              that context the real question would have to be.... what are your
              views as they pertain to the focus of this forum? ;)

              >>>I would say that my principle view is that the various ancient
              Christian and/or Jewish groups that we group together as gnostics
              are a SUB-set of all Gnostic schools.<<<

              For the sake of this forum we use the disambiguation more generally
              accepted in the academic community. This is simply to refine a
              shared lingo for the sake of conversation. I believe we are all
              aware of the old maxim that a good teacher knows how to speak in the
              language of the community being spoken to, so I am sure you are
              making every attempt to genuinely learn our vocabulary. In this
              forum, the capitol "G" Gnosticism refers specifically to the
              category of traditional groups defined in the field of Nag Hammadi
              studies. I state this because I was unsure whether the fact that you
              switched the common noun and the proper noun in your sentence above
              was intentional or just a typo.

              As I stated previously, we can adjust terms slightly here and there
              for the sake of conversation but the base method needs to remain the
              same. After all, this is one of the last forums on the entire net
              that keeps this focus. Disregarding our focus in conversation here
              trolling as Br Joseph states in one of Ben's forums.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AGCA_gnostics/message/3587

              Like the Mandaeans, we are an endangered group. I'm sure you would
              rather foster our focus rather than attempt to destroy our identity.

              PMCV


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              --
              Better than one thousand verses
              Where no profit wings the word,
              Is one solitary stanza
              Bringing peace of mind when heard.
            • pmcvflag
              Ben ... Do you support the focus of this forum within the context of this forum? PMCV
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
                Ben

                >>>isnt that heresy in this group? lol<<<

                Do you support the focus of this forum within the context of this
                forum?

                PMCV
              • pmcvflag
                Ben ... this group?
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
                  Ben

                  >>>how on earth do you see the golden dawn related to the focus of
                  this group?<<<

                  I don't.

                  More specifically (and we do like to be specific here), if you were
                  literally asking how the focus of this forum could be "related" to the
                  Golden Dawn, then I guess one could argue that they are both esoteric
                  systems. On the other hand, if you were asking whether extended
                  conversation about the Golden Dawn is welcome here.... no, it isn't.
                  Not unless it is done explicitely to compare/contrast it to
                  traditional Gnostic ideas.

                  Let me be the first to point out that my own path is also not
                  technically Gnostic (in the historic sense of the word), and I don't
                  talk about it here. If I, one of the mods, am not allowed to blather
                  on about my own path here.... don't you think that rule applies to
                  others as well?

                  PMCV
                • Br Benjamin Assisi
                  I think the focus of the forum is largely one sided, dry and imbalanced BUT I wouldnt be here if I didnt see any value in it ... -- Better than one thousand
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
                    I think the focus of the forum is largely one sided, dry and imbalanced

                    BUT

                    I wouldnt be here if I didnt see any value in it

                    On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:41 PM, pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    Ben

                    >>>isnt that heresy in this group? lol<<<

                    Do you support the focus of this forum within the context of this
                    forum?

                    PMCV


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                    --
                    Better than one thousand verses
                    Where no profit wings the word,
                    Is one solitary stanza
                    Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                  • Br Benjamin Assisi
                    yes that rule seems rather silly like going to a grocer, buying a pound of apples and refusing to eat them but its your group..if you wish it to be divorced
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
                      yes that rule seems rather silly

                      like going to a grocer, buying a pound of apples and refusing to eat them

                      but its your group..if you wish it to be divorced that is your choice
                      On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:59 PM, pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                      Let me be the first to point out that my own path is also not
                      technically Gnostic (in the historic sense of the word), and I don't
                      talk about it here. If I, one of the mods, am not allowed to blather
                      on about my own path here.... don't you think that rule applies to
                      others as well?

                      PMCV


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                      --
                      Better than one thousand verses
                      Where no profit wings the word,
                      Is one solitary stanza
                      Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                    • pmcvflag
                      Ben ... pound of apples and refusing to eat them but its your group..
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
                        Ben

                        >>>yes that rule seems rather silly like going to a grocer, buying a
                        pound of apples and refusing to eat them but its your group..<<<

                        Just because we don't jump to the floor and eat our apples right
                        there in the produce section does not mean we don't know what an
                        apple can be. You seem to imply that a scientist who is looking at
                        the botanical nature of an apple is somehow unable to enjoy the
                        flavor. Be careful about the assumptions you make.

                        >>>if you wish it to be divorced that is your choice<<<

                        Yes, thank you, it is our choice. Not only that, even if you don't
                        understand it there could be a good reason for it. The only thing
                        you have to figure out is whether you can support it or not.

                        >>>I think the focus of the forum is largely one sided, dry and
                        imbalanced BUT I wouldnt be here if I didnt see any value in it<<<

                        Good, then foster that value rather than undermining it.

                        PMCV
                      • George
                        Perhaps I had forgotten, or perhaps I never realized, that the focus on the group was on the ancient groups. Chronologically speaking, where do we draw the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 23, 2008
                          Perhaps I had forgotten, or perhaps I never realized,
                          that the focus on the group was on the ancient groups.

                          Chronologically speaking, where do we draw the line into
                          a more modern period?

                          Regards,

                          George
                        • George
                          Brother Benjamin: Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather than an
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 23, 2008
                            Brother Benjamin:

                            Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                            for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                            than an historical view of who, and what, and where.

                            I presume I was in error?

                            Regards,

                            George
                          • Br Benjamin Assisi
                            in this group yes, this group is very much just a study/history group... interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying catholicism useful to a
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
                              in this group yes,

                              this group is very much just a study/history group...

                              interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying catholicism

                              useful to a point.

                              Arguing at the AGCA??? We are discussing a central core, well I am trying to attempt one, Personally It think there are few "universals" in Gnosticism unknowable god, illusion, no dogma etc.  I dont find any problem in seeing that out side "Gnosticism" either... But I realize in this group and others, its mostly an exercise in separation, putting that substance in a centrifuge and seeing what you get.  So I am here to lurk mostly...

                              On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
                              Brother Benjamin:

                              Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                              for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                              than an historical view of who, and what, and where.

                              I presume I was in error?

                              Regards,

                              George



                              --
                              Better than one thousand verses
                              Where no profit wings the word,
                              Is one solitary stanza
                              Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                            • lady_caritas
                              Brother George and Brother Ben, Since the focus of this forum is the decision of its moderators, I feel inclined to briefly interject my thoughts here. You
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008

                                Brother George and Brother Ben,

                                Since the focus of this forum is the decision of its moderators, I feel inclined to briefly interject my thoughts here.

                                You both have been members here for a while, so I find this conversation rather puzzling.  Not only do new members receive a letter specifically discussing our focus, but we also provide a statement on our homepage that you might want to review, which serves to further remind members and readers of our focus.

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/

                                That said, regarding your query, George:

                                Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                                for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                                than an historical view of who, and what, and where.

                                I presume I was in error?

                                And Ben's reply:

                                in this group yes,

                                Ben, I disagree.  I do not view any of these subjects George lists as mutually exclusive, as long as members remember that we discuss such matters and any modern day comparisons and interests in direct relation to the context of these historical groups of the Late Antiquities.  We offer a focus with the understanding that this provides but one important aspect and perspective within the huge subject of spirituality.

                                We have had umpteen discussions and complaints about focus in this group.  I imagine I am not the only one who is tired of these recurring conversations. 

                                Therefore, I suggest that if you are interested in a subject appropriate to our group, please feel free to start a thread and we moderators will step in to guide if the subject gets too far off base.

                                If anyone has any problems with our focus, then no one is twisting their arm to enter conversation.  It's that simple.

                                Thank you.

                                Cari


                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Br Benjamin Assisi" <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > in this group yes,
                                >
                                > this group is very much just a study/history group...
                                >
                                > interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying catholicism
                                >
                                > useful to a point.
                                >
                                > Arguing at the AGCA??? We are discussing a central core, well I am trying to
                                > attempt one, Personally It think there are few "universals" in Gnosticism
                                > unknowable god, illusion, no dogma etc. I dont find any problem in seeing
                                > that out side "Gnosticism" either... But I realize in this group and others,
                                > its mostly an exercise in separation, putting that substance in a centrifuge
                                > and seeing what you get. So I am here to lurk mostly...
                                >
                                > On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM, George historynow2002@... wrote:
                                >
                                > > Brother Benjamin:
                                > >
                                > > Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                                > > for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                                > > than an historical view of who, and what, and where.
                                > >
                                > > I presume I was in error?
                                > >
                                > > Regards,
                                > >
                                > > George
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Better than one thousand verses
                                > Where no profit wings the word,
                                > Is one solitary stanza
                                > Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                                >

                              • pmcvflag
                                ... appropriate to our group, please feel free to start a thread and we moderators will step in to guide if the subject gets too far off base.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
                                  >>>Therefore, I suggest that if you are interested in a subject
                                  appropriate to our group, please feel free to start a thread and we
                                  moderators will step in to guide if the subject gets too far off
                                  base.<<<

                                  It seems that Lady Cari has pointed to the obvious next step, so I
                                  will leave it at that and move from this conversation to the two that
                                  do relate to our focus. Thanks for keeping us on track, Lady Cari.

                                  PMCV
                                • Gerry
                                  ... Only umpteen? Geez! Strange how it has seemed more like a gazillion, innit. Gerry ... Only umpteen ? Geez! Strange how it has seemed more like a
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008


                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > […]
                                    >
                                    > We have had umpteen discussions and complaints about focus in this
                                    > group. I imagine I am not the only one who is tired of these recurring
                                    > conversations.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Cari
                                    >

                                     

                                    Only umpteen?  Geez!  Strange how it has seemed more like a gazillion, innit.

                                    Gerry

                                  • pmcvflag
                                    Hey George ... a more modern period?
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
                                      Hey George

                                      >>>Chronologically speaking, where do we draw the line into
                                      a more modern period?<<<

                                      If I recall the Messina definition simply states "the Late
                                      Antiquities" as an attribute of the "Gnosticism" category (up to about
                                      500 C.E. was the common date). However, since that time it seems most
                                      scholars have dealt with the issue more on the front of specific
                                      belief systems. This is probably more reasonable since if we found a
                                      text by a Sethian sect still existing in the Medieval era we would
                                      have to include it.

                                      The more important attributes that scholars generally look at as
                                      definitive include cosmology/cosmogeny, soteriology, and a specific
                                      cultural origin (Hellenistic/"Biblical" syncratism).

                                      PMCV
                                    • Mark
                                      a bit like a muslim studying catholicism No, more like a modern gnostic studying his (or her) roots in historical Gnosticism. Many things are useful to a
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 25, 2008
                                        "a bit like a muslim studying catholicism"

                                        No, more like a modern gnostic studying his (or her) roots in
                                        historical Gnosticism. Many things are useful to a point--and the
                                        point is often knowing that point. The flaw may be in your
                                        expectations and not in the purpose of this list.

                                        Mark

                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Br Benjamin Assisi"
                                        <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > in this group yes,
                                        >
                                        > this group is very much just a study/history group...
                                        >
                                        > interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying
                                        catholicism
                                        >
                                        > useful to a point.
                                        >
                                        > Arguing at the AGCA??? We are discussing a central core, well I am
                                        trying to
                                        > attempt one, Personally It think there are few "universals" in
                                        Gnosticism
                                        > unknowable god, illusion, no dogma etc. I dont find any problem in
                                        seeing
                                        > that out side "Gnosticism" either... But I realize in this group
                                        and others,
                                        > its mostly an exercise in separation, putting that substance in a
                                        centrifuge
                                        > and seeing what you get. So I am here to lurk mostly...
                                        >
                                        > On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Brother Benjamin:
                                        > >
                                        > > Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                                        > > for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                                        > > than an historical view of who, and what, and where.
                                        > >
                                        > > I presume I was in error?
                                        > >
                                        > > Regards,
                                        > >
                                        > > George
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Better than one thousand verses
                                        > Where no profit wings the word,
                                        > Is one solitary stanza
                                        > Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                                        >
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