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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

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  • Michael Leavitt
    i AGREE.
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
      i AGREE.

      pmcvflag wrote:
      > Hey Michael
      >
      >
      >>>> What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
      >>>>
      >
      > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
      > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
      > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
      > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
      > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
      > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
      > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.
      >
      > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
      >
      > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
      > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
      > do so just yet.
      >
      > PMCV
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • thalprin
      Hi PMCV, I m still thinking about this graph, but in the meantime I thought I d like to send a couple of links to a few of my favorite timelines:
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
      • thalprin
        PMCV, I ll tell you what I ve been thinking or I am kicking around, I m thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider making two graphs; one to
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
          PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking around,
          I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
          making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
          tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
          relatives.

          I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
          affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
          adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
          most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
          philosophical sense.

          Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?

          Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
          great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to do
          so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.


          Thalprin
        • George
          PMCV: What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 16 4:38 PM
            PMCV:

            What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
            this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

            But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
            everyone) finds adequate.

            What I have seen is that an inspirational idea like gnosticism
            leap-frogs from one community to another.

            Whether a gnostic system is raw or fully matured, there is leader
            or community that becomes influenced by just reading about it, and
            maybe even puts a new spin on it.

            And there you have yet another gnostic group.

            It's very much like Protestantism. Once you had a vigorous
            tradition of religion not controlled by the pope, ideas just
            lept from one part of the world to another... based on readings
            or personal meetings.

            If Billy Graham sells 50,000 tapes of his ideas and his preachings,
            there are 50,000 possibilities that the person who receives the
            tape will be inspired to do something ALMOST LIKE Billy Graham.

            If he's on the East coast, and the new community is on the
            West coast, who would know there was a connection, especially
            if the new community has added an important (or not so important)
            element to its theology or practice.

            Conclusion?

            While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
            be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

            I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
            is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
            What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

            Regards,


            George
          • pmcvflag
            Hey George ... this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that everyone (or most everyone) finds adequate.
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 16 9:31 PM
              Hey George

              >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
              this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

              But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
              everyone) finds adequate.<<<

              Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
              taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.

              As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
              talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
              small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
              the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
              academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
              debate.

              Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
              believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
              concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
              with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
              Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
              to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
              the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
              Existentialism with a capitol "E"?

              Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
              those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
              Gnosticism.

              PMCV
            • Br Benjamin Assisi
              ... dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes? .
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 17 3:52 AM

                While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                Regards,


                George


                dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?
                .
              • Sean
                I agree. All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 17 8:46 AM
                  I agree.

                  All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to
                  define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does that define the wind.

                  Pax!

                  Sean


                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey George
                  >
                  > >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                  > this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.
                  >
                  > But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                  > everyone) finds adequate.<<<
                  >
                  > Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                  > taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.
                  >
                  > As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                  > talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                  > small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                  > the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                  > academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                  > debate.
                  >
                  > Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                  > believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                  > concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                  > with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                  > Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                  > to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                  > the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                  > Existentialism with a capitol "E"?
                  >
                  > Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                  > those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                  > Gnosticism.
                  >
                  > PMCV
                  >
                • pmcvflag
                  Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 20 9:52 PM
                    Hey George and Ben

                    George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
                    the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
                    left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
                    Mandaeans?<<<

                    Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

                    Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
                    is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
                    (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
                    study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
                    that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

                    As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
                    little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
                    of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
                    the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
                    Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
                    can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
                    can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
                    particular group.

                    Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
                    other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
                    this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
                    we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
                    which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

                    Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
                    question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
                    Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
                    removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
                    states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
                    Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
                    accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
                    appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
                    accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
                    theological influence from Islam.

                    Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
                    as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
                    interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
                    imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
                    could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
                    view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
                    as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
                    ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
                    within a single cultural venue.

                    PMCV
                  • George
                    I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 23 11:55 AM
                      I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                      Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                      as well.

                      This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
                      later being a follower of John the Baptist.

                      Regards,

                      George
                    • pmcvflag
                      George ... as well.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 24 6:55 PM
                        George

                        >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                        as well.<<<

                        I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
                        Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
                        doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

                        Anyway, more important to our subject....

                        >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                        Sadducees.<<<

                        You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
                        the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
                        Ben.

                        The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
                        Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
                        out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
                        very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
                        of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
                        obviously far more possible.

                        To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
                        reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
                        Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
                        Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
                        descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
                        related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
                        they look to be very Gnostic.

                        Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
                        Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
                        mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
                        shed some light on the subject.

                        PMCV
                      • pmcvflag
                        Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 24 10:01 PM
                          Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                          Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

                          Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                          having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                          tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                          lacking). Anyone want to help?

                          PMCV

                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                          around,
                          > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                          > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                          > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                          > relatives.
                          >
                          > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                          > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                          > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                          > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                          > philosophical sense.
                          >
                          > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                          >
                          > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                          > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                          do
                          > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                          >
                          >
                          > Thalprin
                          >
                        • thalprin
                          PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 25 8:47 AM
                            PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
                            you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                            historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
                            and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                            the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
                            to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                            know/assure that we're being thorough.

                            Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                            illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                            tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
                            think I'd enjoy to help.

                            Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                            thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                            add (if anything).

                            Thalprin


                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

                            http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                            (Check out that 3rd category,)

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


                            Some Codex:
                            (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                            are really such exceptional works,)

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



                            http://www.vetuslatina.org/

                            http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

                            http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

                            http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                            > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                            >
                            > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                            > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                            > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                            > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                            >
                            > PMCV
                            >
                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                            > around,
                            > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                            > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                            family
                            > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                            > > relatives.
                            > >
                            > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                            > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                            > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                            > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                            > > philosophical sense.
                            > >
                            > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                            > >
                            > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                            > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                            > do
                            > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Thalprin
                            > >
                            >
                          • thalprin
                            ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 25 9:05 AM
                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                              project
                              > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                              > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                              possible,
                              > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                              > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                              links
                              > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                              > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                              >
                              > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                              > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                              > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                              I
                              > think I'd enjoy to help.
                              >
                              > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                              > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                              > add (if anything).
                              >
                              > Thalprin
                              >
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                              >
                              > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                              > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                              >
                              >
                              > Some Codex:
                              > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                              > are really such exceptional works,)
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                              >


                              Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                              have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                              >
                              >
                              > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                              >
                              > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                              >
                              > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                              >
                              > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                              chart.
                              > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                              > >
                              > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                              > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                              graphic
                              > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                              is
                              > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                              > >
                              > > PMCV
                              > >
                              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                              > > around,
                              > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                              see/consider
                              > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                              > family
                              > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                              a/o
                              > > > relatives.
                              > > >
                              > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                              > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                              partly
                              > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                              be
                              > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                              > > > philosophical sense.
                              > > >
                              > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                              > > >
                              > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                              a
                              > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                              to
                              > > do
                              > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                              examples.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Thalprin
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • George
                              Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
                                Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                later.

                                I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                                of a Sadducee family.

                                PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                                possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                                terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                                This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                                and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                                comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                                certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                                to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                                the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                                he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                                there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                                This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                                In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                                Regards,

                                George
                              • pmcvflag
                                George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
                                  George

                                  >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                  make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                  later.

                                  <snipped for brevity>

                                  This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                  to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                  way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                                  Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                                  Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                                  we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                                  again.

                                  >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                  "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                  the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                  Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                                  I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                                  relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                                  response and maybe forgot?

                                  PMCV
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