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Re: Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

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  • pmcvflag
    I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I didn t want to change
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
      I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left
      some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I
      didn't want to change the graph right away is that I hoped a number
      of people would have some points or questions dealing with the
      categories that we could use to create a larger graph. Maybe some
      people even have been thinking of the categories in a very different
      way, or even disagree with this chart for some reason.

      I was also trying to do the timeline, but I just can't seem to make
      it look readable.

      PMCV


      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Michael
      >
      > >>>What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
      >
      > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted
      to
      > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is
      interesting),
      > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
      > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
      > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
      > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
      > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my
      view.
      >
      > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
      >
      > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic
      point.
      > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we
      should
      > do so just yet.
      >
      > PMCV
      >
    • Michael Leavitt
      i AGREE.
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
        i AGREE.

        pmcvflag wrote:
        > Hey Michael
        >
        >
        >>>> What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
        >>>>
        >
        > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
        > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
        > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
        > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
        > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
        > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
        > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.
        >
        > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
        >
        > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
        > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
        > do so just yet.
        >
        > PMCV
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • thalprin
        Hi PMCV, I m still thinking about this graph, but in the meantime I thought I d like to send a couple of links to a few of my favorite timelines:
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
        • thalprin
          PMCV, I ll tell you what I ve been thinking or I am kicking around, I m thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider making two graphs; one to
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
            PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking around,
            I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
            making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
            tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
            relatives.

            I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
            affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
            adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
            most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
            philosophical sense.

            Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?

            Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
            great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to do
            so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.


            Thalprin
          • George
            PMCV: What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 16, 2008
              PMCV:

              What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
              this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

              But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
              everyone) finds adequate.

              What I have seen is that an inspirational idea like gnosticism
              leap-frogs from one community to another.

              Whether a gnostic system is raw or fully matured, there is leader
              or community that becomes influenced by just reading about it, and
              maybe even puts a new spin on it.

              And there you have yet another gnostic group.

              It's very much like Protestantism. Once you had a vigorous
              tradition of religion not controlled by the pope, ideas just
              lept from one part of the world to another... based on readings
              or personal meetings.

              If Billy Graham sells 50,000 tapes of his ideas and his preachings,
              there are 50,000 possibilities that the person who receives the
              tape will be inspired to do something ALMOST LIKE Billy Graham.

              If he's on the East coast, and the new community is on the
              West coast, who would know there was a connection, especially
              if the new community has added an important (or not so important)
              element to its theology or practice.

              Conclusion?

              While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
              be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

              I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
              is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
              What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

              Regards,


              George
            • pmcvflag
              Hey George ... this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that everyone (or most everyone) finds adequate.
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 16, 2008
                Hey George

                >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

                But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                everyone) finds adequate.<<<

                Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.

                As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                debate.

                Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                Existentialism with a capitol "E"?

                Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                Gnosticism.

                PMCV
              • Br Benjamin Assisi
                ... dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes? .
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008

                  While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                  be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                  I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                  is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                  What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                  Regards,


                  George


                  dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?
                  .
                • Sean
                  I agree. All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
                    I agree.

                    All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to
                    define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does that define the wind.

                    Pax!

                    Sean


                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hey George
                    >
                    > >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                    > this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.
                    >
                    > But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                    > everyone) finds adequate.<<<
                    >
                    > Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                    > taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.
                    >
                    > As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                    > talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                    > small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                    > the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                    > academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                    > debate.
                    >
                    > Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                    > believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                    > concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                    > with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                    > Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                    > to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                    > the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                    > Existentialism with a capitol "E"?
                    >
                    > Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                    > those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                    > Gnosticism.
                    >
                    > PMCV
                    >
                  • pmcvflag
                    Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 20, 2008
                      Hey George and Ben

                      George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
                      the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
                      left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
                      Mandaeans?<<<

                      Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

                      Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
                      is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
                      (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
                      study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
                      that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

                      As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
                      little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
                      of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
                      the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
                      Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
                      can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
                      can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
                      particular group.

                      Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
                      other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
                      this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
                      we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
                      which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

                      Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
                      question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
                      Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
                      removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
                      states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
                      Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
                      accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
                      appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
                      accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
                      theological influence from Islam.

                      Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
                      as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
                      interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
                      imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
                      could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
                      view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
                      as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
                      ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
                      within a single cultural venue.

                      PMCV
                    • George
                      I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 23, 2008
                        I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                        Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                        as well.

                        This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
                        later being a follower of John the Baptist.

                        Regards,

                        George
                      • pmcvflag
                        George ... as well.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
                          George

                          >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                          as well.<<<

                          I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
                          Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
                          doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

                          Anyway, more important to our subject....

                          >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                          Sadducees.<<<

                          You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
                          the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
                          Ben.

                          The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
                          Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
                          out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
                          very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
                          of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
                          obviously far more possible.

                          To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
                          reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
                          Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
                          Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
                          descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
                          related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
                          they look to be very Gnostic.

                          Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
                          Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
                          mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
                          shed some light on the subject.

                          PMCV
                        • pmcvflag
                          Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
                            Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                            Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

                            Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                            having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                            tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                            lacking). Anyone want to help?

                            PMCV

                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                            around,
                            > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                            > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                            > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                            > relatives.
                            >
                            > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                            > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                            > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                            > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                            > philosophical sense.
                            >
                            > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                            >
                            > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                            > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                            do
                            > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                            >
                            >
                            > Thalprin
                            >
                          • thalprin
                            PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
                              PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
                              you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                              historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
                              and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                              the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
                              to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                              know/assure that we're being thorough.

                              Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                              illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                              tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
                              think I'd enjoy to help.

                              Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                              thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                              add (if anything).

                              Thalprin


                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

                              http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                              (Check out that 3rd category,)

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


                              Some Codex:
                              (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                              are really such exceptional works,)

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



                              http://www.vetuslatina.org/

                              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

                              http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

                              http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                              > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                              >
                              > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                              > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                              > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                              > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                              >
                              > PMCV
                              >
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                              > around,
                              > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                              > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                              family
                              > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                              > > relatives.
                              > >
                              > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                              > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                              > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                              > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                              > > philosophical sense.
                              > >
                              > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                              > >
                              > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                              > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                              > do
                              > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Thalprin
                              > >
                              >
                            • thalprin
                              ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                                project
                                > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                                > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                                possible,
                                > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                                > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                                links
                                > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                                > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                                >
                                > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                                > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                                > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                                I
                                > think I'd enjoy to help.
                                >
                                > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                                > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                                > add (if anything).
                                >
                                > Thalprin
                                >
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                                >
                                > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                                > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                                >
                                >
                                > Some Codex:
                                > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                                > are really such exceptional works,)
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                                >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                                >


                                Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                                have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                                >
                                >
                                > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                                >
                                > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                                >
                                > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                                >
                                > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                                chart.
                                > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                                > >
                                > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                                graphic
                                > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                                is
                                > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                                > >
                                > > PMCV
                                > >
                                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                > > around,
                                > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                                see/consider
                                > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                                > family
                                > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                                a/o
                                > > > relatives.
                                > > >
                                > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                                partly
                                > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                                be
                                > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                > > > philosophical sense.
                                > > >
                                > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                > > >
                                > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                                a
                                > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                                to
                                > > do
                                > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                                examples.
                                > > >
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                                > > > Thalprin
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                                > >
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                              • George
                                Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
                                  Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                  make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                  later.

                                  I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                                  of a Sadducee family.

                                  PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                                  possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                                  terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                                  This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                                  and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                                  comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                                  certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                                  to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                                  the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                                  he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                                  there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                                  This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                  to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                  way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                                  In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                  "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                  the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                  Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                                  Regards,

                                  George
                                • pmcvflag
                                  George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
                                    George

                                    >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                    make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                    later.

                                    <snipped for brevity>

                                    This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                    to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                    way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                                    Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                                    Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                                    we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                                    again.

                                    >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                    "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                    the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                    Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                                    I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                                    relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                                    response and maybe forgot?

                                    PMCV
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