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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

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  • Michael Leavitt
    ... Pmvc, What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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      pmcvflag wrote:
      > I should point out that some scholars (like Birger Pearson) believe
      > that Hermetism actually does contain Biblical elements. If this is
      > true, the chart would need to be adjusted accordingly.
      >
      > Anyone have thoughts, questions, points, etc.
      >
      >
      Pmvc,

      What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Michael ... I don t remember the details (it isn t my theory... I just wanted to give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting), but
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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        Hey Michael

        >>>What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<

        I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
        give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
        but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
        Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
        for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
        important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
        stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.

        Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.

        It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
        Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
        do so just yet.

        PMCV
      • pmcvflag
        I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I didn t want to change
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
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          I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left
          some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I
          didn't want to change the graph right away is that I hoped a number
          of people would have some points or questions dealing with the
          categories that we could use to create a larger graph. Maybe some
          people even have been thinking of the categories in a very different
          way, or even disagree with this chart for some reason.

          I was also trying to do the timeline, but I just can't seem to make
          it look readable.

          PMCV


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey Michael
          >
          > >>>What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
          >
          > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted
          to
          > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is
          interesting),
          > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
          > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
          > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
          > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
          > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my
          view.
          >
          > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
          >
          > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic
          point.
          > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we
          should
          > do so just yet.
          >
          > PMCV
          >
        • Michael Leavitt
          i AGREE.
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
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            i AGREE.

            pmcvflag wrote:
            > Hey Michael
            >
            >
            >>>> What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
            >>>>
            >
            > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
            > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
            > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
            > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
            > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
            > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
            > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.
            >
            > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
            >
            > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
            > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
            > do so just yet.
            >
            > PMCV
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • thalprin
            Hi PMCV, I m still thinking about this graph, but in the meantime I thought I d like to send a couple of links to a few of my favorite timelines:
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
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            • thalprin
              PMCV, I ll tell you what I ve been thinking or I am kicking around, I m thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider making two graphs; one to
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
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                PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking around,
                I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                relatives.

                I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                philosophical sense.

                Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?

                Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to do
                so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.


                Thalprin
              • George
                PMCV: What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 16, 2008
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                  PMCV:

                  What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                  this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

                  But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                  everyone) finds adequate.

                  What I have seen is that an inspirational idea like gnosticism
                  leap-frogs from one community to another.

                  Whether a gnostic system is raw or fully matured, there is leader
                  or community that becomes influenced by just reading about it, and
                  maybe even puts a new spin on it.

                  And there you have yet another gnostic group.

                  It's very much like Protestantism. Once you had a vigorous
                  tradition of religion not controlled by the pope, ideas just
                  lept from one part of the world to another... based on readings
                  or personal meetings.

                  If Billy Graham sells 50,000 tapes of his ideas and his preachings,
                  there are 50,000 possibilities that the person who receives the
                  tape will be inspired to do something ALMOST LIKE Billy Graham.

                  If he's on the East coast, and the new community is on the
                  West coast, who would know there was a connection, especially
                  if the new community has added an important (or not so important)
                  element to its theology or practice.

                  Conclusion?

                  While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                  be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                  I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                  is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                  What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                  Regards,


                  George
                • pmcvflag
                  Hey George ... this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that everyone (or most everyone) finds adequate.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 16, 2008
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                    Hey George

                    >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                    this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

                    But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                    everyone) finds adequate.<<<

                    Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                    taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.

                    As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                    talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                    small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                    the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                    academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                    debate.

                    Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                    believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                    concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                    with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                    Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                    to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                    the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                    Existentialism with a capitol "E"?

                    Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                    those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                    Gnosticism.

                    PMCV
                  • Br Benjamin Assisi
                    ... dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes? .
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
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                      While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                      be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                      I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                      is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                      What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                      Regards,


                      George


                      dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?
                      .
                    • Sean
                      I agree. All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
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                        I agree.

                        All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to
                        define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does that define the wind.

                        Pax!

                        Sean


                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hey George
                        >
                        > >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                        > this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.
                        >
                        > But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                        > everyone) finds adequate.<<<
                        >
                        > Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                        > taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.
                        >
                        > As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                        > talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                        > small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                        > the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                        > academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                        > debate.
                        >
                        > Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                        > believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                        > concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                        > with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                        > Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                        > to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                        > the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                        > Existentialism with a capitol "E"?
                        >
                        > Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                        > those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                        > Gnosticism.
                        >
                        > PMCV
                        >
                      • pmcvflag
                        Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 20, 2008
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                          Hey George and Ben

                          George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
                          the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
                          left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
                          Mandaeans?<<<

                          Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

                          Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
                          is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
                          (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
                          study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
                          that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

                          As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
                          little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
                          of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
                          the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
                          Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
                          can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
                          can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
                          particular group.

                          Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
                          other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
                          this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
                          we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
                          which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

                          Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
                          question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
                          Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
                          removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
                          states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
                          Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
                          accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
                          appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
                          accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
                          theological influence from Islam.

                          Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
                          as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
                          interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
                          imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
                          could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
                          view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
                          as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
                          ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
                          within a single cultural venue.

                          PMCV
                        • George
                          I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 23, 2008
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                            I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                            Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                            as well.

                            This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
                            later being a follower of John the Baptist.

                            Regards,

                            George
                          • pmcvflag
                            George ... as well.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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                              George

                              >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                              as well.<<<

                              I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
                              Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
                              doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

                              Anyway, more important to our subject....

                              >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                              Sadducees.<<<

                              You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
                              the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
                              Ben.

                              The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
                              Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
                              out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
                              very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
                              of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
                              obviously far more possible.

                              To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
                              reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
                              Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
                              Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
                              descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
                              related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
                              they look to be very Gnostic.

                              Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
                              Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
                              mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
                              shed some light on the subject.

                              PMCV
                            • pmcvflag
                              Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                                Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

                                Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                                tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                                lacking). Anyone want to help?

                                PMCV

                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                around,
                                > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                                > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                                > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                                > relatives.
                                >
                                > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                                > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                                > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                > philosophical sense.
                                >
                                > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                >
                                > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                                > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                                do
                                > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                                >
                                >
                                > Thalprin
                                >
                              • thalprin
                                PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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                                  PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
                                  you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                                  historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
                                  and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                                  the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
                                  to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                                  know/assure that we're being thorough.

                                  Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                                  illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                                  tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
                                  think I'd enjoy to help.

                                  Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                                  thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                                  add (if anything).

                                  Thalprin


                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

                                  http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                                  (Check out that 3rd category,)

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


                                  Some Codex:
                                  (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                                  are really such exceptional works,)

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



                                  http://www.vetuslatina.org/

                                  http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

                                  http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

                                  http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                                  > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                                  >
                                  > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                  > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                                  > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                                  > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                                  >
                                  > PMCV
                                  >
                                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                  > around,
                                  > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                                  > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                                  family
                                  > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                                  > > relatives.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                  > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                                  > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                                  > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                  > > philosophical sense.
                                  > >
                                  > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                  > >
                                  > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                                  > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                                  > do
                                  > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Thalprin
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • thalprin
                                  ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                                    project
                                    > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                                    > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                                    possible,
                                    > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                                    > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                                    links
                                    > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                                    > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                                    >
                                    > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                                    > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                                    > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                                    I
                                    > think I'd enjoy to help.
                                    >
                                    > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                                    > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                                    > add (if anything).
                                    >
                                    > Thalprin
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                                    >
                                    > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                                    > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Some Codex:
                                    > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                                    > are really such exceptional works,)
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                                    >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                                    >


                                    Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                                    have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                                    >
                                    >
                                    > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                                    >
                                    > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                                    >
                                    > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                                    >
                                    > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                                    chart.
                                    > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                                    > >
                                    > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                    > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                                    graphic
                                    > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                                    is
                                    > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                                    > >
                                    > > PMCV
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                    > > around,
                                    > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                                    see/consider
                                    > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                                    > family
                                    > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                                    a/o
                                    > > > relatives.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                    > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                                    partly
                                    > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                                    be
                                    > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                    > > > philosophical sense.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                                    a
                                    > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                                    to
                                    > > do
                                    > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                                    examples.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Thalprin
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • George
                                    Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 6 2:07 PM
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                                      Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                      make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                      later.

                                      I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                                      of a Sadducee family.

                                      PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                                      possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                                      terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                                      This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                                      and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                                      comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                                      certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                                      to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                                      the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                                      he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                                      there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                                      This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                      to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                      way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                                      In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                      "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                      the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                      Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                                      Regards,

                                      George
                                    • pmcvflag
                                      George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 14 5:55 PM
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                                        George

                                        >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                        make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                        later.

                                        <snipped for brevity>

                                        This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                        to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                        way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                                        Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                                        Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                                        we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                                        again.

                                        >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                        "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                        the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                        Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                                        I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                                        relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                                        response and maybe forgot?

                                        PMCV
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