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Re: Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey Thalprin Ok, I finally got the categorical graph done. It is in the Files section of our home page. http://tinyurl.com/ypvla3 I was trying to play with
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 13, 2008
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      Hey Thalprin

      Ok, I finally got the categorical graph done. It is in the "Files"
      section of our home page.

      http://tinyurl.com/ypvla3

      I was trying to play with some family tree programs and some better
      graphics programs, but in the end I realized that if I was ever
      going to get it done I needed to keep it simple. Even though I call
      this a "family tree", it is meant to show categorical relations
      rather than cause and effect. For instance, obviously Sethianism and
      Valentinianism are FORMS of Gnosticism, rather than something that
      grew out of Gnosticism. On the other hand, Kabbalah likely actually
      grew out of Merkabah.

      I should point out that some scholars (like Birger Pearson) believe
      that Hermetism actually does contain Biblical elements. If this is
      true, the chart would need to be adjusted accordingly.

      Anyone have thoughts, questions, points, etc?

      PMCV



      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sounds good PMCV and thanks, this taxonomy could be very
      interesting I
      > think - I'll look forward to seeing it. If any suggestions come
      to
      > mind I'll certainly pass them along.
      >
      > Thalprin
      >
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hey Thalprin
      > >
      > > >>>Yes, I'd like to see that, I think that'd be interesting.
      > > Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?<<<
      > >
      > > I actually tried to create a timeline some years back, but I ran
      into
      > > some problems (partly basic computer problems). In any event, I
      think
      > > these charts would have to be unconnected. A timeline would not
      > follow
      > > a taxonomy in this case. I'll play with some programs and see
      how I
      > > may best present this kind of chart on this forum. Any
      suggestions
      > > would be helpful.
      > >
      > > PMCV
      > >
      >
    • thalprin
      It s nice PMCV, I like this graph. Something does come to mind, but I m not sure what that is as yet. Today I have a busy plate, tomorrow I ll see if I can
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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        It's nice PMCV, I like this graph.

        Something does come to mind, but I'm not sure what that is as yet.
        Today I have a busy plate, tomorrow I'll see if I can figure out what
        I'm feeling/thinking, or what's catching my eye.

        Thalprin


        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey Thalprin
        >
        > Ok, I finally got the categorical graph done. It is in the "Files"
        > section of our home page.
        >
        > http://tinyurl.com/ypvla3
        >
        > I was trying to play with some family tree programs and some better
        > graphics programs, but in the end I realized that if I was ever
        > going to get it done I needed to keep it simple. Even though I call
        > this a "family tree", it is meant to show categorical relations
        > rather than cause and effect. For instance, obviously Sethianism
        and
        > Valentinianism are FORMS of Gnosticism, rather than something that
        > grew out of Gnosticism. On the other hand, Kabbalah likely actually
        > grew out of Merkabah.
        >
        > I should point out that some scholars (like Birger Pearson) believe
        > that Hermetism actually does contain Biblical elements. If this is
        > true, the chart would need to be adjusted accordingly.
        >
        > Anyone have thoughts, questions, points, etc?
        >
        > PMCV
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Sounds good PMCV and thanks, this taxonomy could be very
        > interesting I
        > > think - I'll look forward to seeing it. If any suggestions come
        > to
        > > mind I'll certainly pass them along.
        > >
        > > Thalprin
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hey Thalprin
        > > >
        > > > >>>Yes, I'd like to see that, I think that'd be interesting.
        > > > Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?<<<
        > > >
        > > > I actually tried to create a timeline some years back, but I
        ran
        > into
        > > > some problems (partly basic computer problems). In any event, I
        > think
        > > > these charts would have to be unconnected. A timeline would not
        > > follow
        > > > a taxonomy in this case. I'll play with some programs and see
        > how I
        > > > may best present this kind of chart on this forum. Any
        > suggestions
        > > > would be helpful.
        > > >
        > > > PMCV
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Michael Leavitt
        ... Pmvc, What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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          pmcvflag wrote:
          > I should point out that some scholars (like Birger Pearson) believe
          > that Hermetism actually does contain Biblical elements. If this is
          > true, the chart would need to be adjusted accordingly.
          >
          > Anyone have thoughts, questions, points, etc.
          >
          >
          Pmvc,

          What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.
        • pmcvflag
          Hey Michael ... I don t remember the details (it isn t my theory... I just wanted to give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting), but
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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            Hey Michael

            >>>What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<

            I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
            give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
            but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
            Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
            for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
            important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
            stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.

            Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.

            It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
            Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
            do so just yet.

            PMCV
          • pmcvflag
            I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I didn t want to change
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
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              I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left
              some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I
              didn't want to change the graph right away is that I hoped a number
              of people would have some points or questions dealing with the
              categories that we could use to create a larger graph. Maybe some
              people even have been thinking of the categories in a very different
              way, or even disagree with this chart for some reason.

              I was also trying to do the timeline, but I just can't seem to make
              it look readable.

              PMCV


              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Michael
              >
              > >>>What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
              >
              > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted
              to
              > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is
              interesting),
              > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
              > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
              > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
              > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
              > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my
              view.
              >
              > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
              >
              > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic
              point.
              > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we
              should
              > do so just yet.
              >
              > PMCV
              >
            • Michael Leavitt
              i AGREE.
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
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                i AGREE.

                pmcvflag wrote:
                > Hey Michael
                >
                >
                >>>> What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
                >>>>
                >
                > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
                > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
                > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
                > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
                > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
                > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
                > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.
                >
                > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
                >
                > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
                > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
                > do so just yet.
                >
                > PMCV
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • thalprin
                Hi PMCV, I m still thinking about this graph, but in the meantime I thought I d like to send a couple of links to a few of my favorite timelines:
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
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                • thalprin
                  PMCV, I ll tell you what I ve been thinking or I am kicking around, I m thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider making two graphs; one to
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
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                    PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking around,
                    I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                    making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                    tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                    relatives.

                    I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                    affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                    adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                    most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                    philosophical sense.

                    Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?

                    Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                    great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to do
                    so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.


                    Thalprin
                  • George
                    PMCV: What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 16 4:38 PM
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                      PMCV:

                      What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                      this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

                      But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                      everyone) finds adequate.

                      What I have seen is that an inspirational idea like gnosticism
                      leap-frogs from one community to another.

                      Whether a gnostic system is raw or fully matured, there is leader
                      or community that becomes influenced by just reading about it, and
                      maybe even puts a new spin on it.

                      And there you have yet another gnostic group.

                      It's very much like Protestantism. Once you had a vigorous
                      tradition of religion not controlled by the pope, ideas just
                      lept from one part of the world to another... based on readings
                      or personal meetings.

                      If Billy Graham sells 50,000 tapes of his ideas and his preachings,
                      there are 50,000 possibilities that the person who receives the
                      tape will be inspired to do something ALMOST LIKE Billy Graham.

                      If he's on the East coast, and the new community is on the
                      West coast, who would know there was a connection, especially
                      if the new community has added an important (or not so important)
                      element to its theology or practice.

                      Conclusion?

                      While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                      be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                      I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                      is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                      What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                      Regards,


                      George
                    • pmcvflag
                      Hey George ... this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that everyone (or most everyone) finds adequate.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 16 9:31 PM
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                        Hey George

                        >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                        this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

                        But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                        everyone) finds adequate.<<<

                        Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                        taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.

                        As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                        talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                        small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                        the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                        academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                        debate.

                        Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                        believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                        concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                        with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                        Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                        to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                        the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                        Existentialism with a capitol "E"?

                        Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                        those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                        Gnosticism.

                        PMCV
                      • Br Benjamin Assisi
                        ... dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes? .
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 17 3:52 AM
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                          While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                          be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                          I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                          is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                          What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                          Regards,


                          George


                          dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?
                          .
                        • Sean
                          I agree. All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 17 8:46 AM
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                            I agree.

                            All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to
                            define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does that define the wind.

                            Pax!

                            Sean


                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hey George
                            >
                            > >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                            > this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.
                            >
                            > But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                            > everyone) finds adequate.<<<
                            >
                            > Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                            > taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.
                            >
                            > As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                            > talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                            > small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                            > the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                            > academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                            > debate.
                            >
                            > Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                            > believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                            > concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                            > with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                            > Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                            > to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                            > the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                            > Existentialism with a capitol "E"?
                            >
                            > Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                            > those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                            > Gnosticism.
                            >
                            > PMCV
                            >
                          • pmcvflag
                            Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 20 9:52 PM
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                              Hey George and Ben

                              George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
                              the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
                              left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
                              Mandaeans?<<<

                              Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

                              Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
                              is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
                              (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
                              study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
                              that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

                              As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
                              little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
                              of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
                              the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
                              Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
                              can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
                              can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
                              particular group.

                              Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
                              other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
                              this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
                              we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
                              which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

                              Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
                              question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
                              Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
                              removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
                              states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
                              Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
                              accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
                              appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
                              accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
                              theological influence from Islam.

                              Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
                              as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
                              interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
                              imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
                              could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
                              view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
                              as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
                              ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
                              within a single cultural venue.

                              PMCV
                            • George
                              I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 23 11:55 AM
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                                I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                                Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                                as well.

                                This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
                                later being a follower of John the Baptist.

                                Regards,

                                George
                              • pmcvflag
                                George ... as well.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 24 6:55 PM
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                                  George

                                  >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                                  as well.<<<

                                  I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
                                  Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
                                  doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

                                  Anyway, more important to our subject....

                                  >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                                  Sadducees.<<<

                                  You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
                                  the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
                                  Ben.

                                  The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
                                  Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
                                  out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
                                  very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
                                  of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
                                  obviously far more possible.

                                  To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
                                  reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
                                  Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
                                  Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
                                  descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
                                  related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
                                  they look to be very Gnostic.

                                  Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
                                  Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
                                  mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
                                  shed some light on the subject.

                                  PMCV
                                • pmcvflag
                                  Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 24 10:01 PM
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                                    Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                                    Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

                                    Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                    having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                                    tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                                    lacking). Anyone want to help?

                                    PMCV

                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                    around,
                                    > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                                    > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                                    > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                                    > relatives.
                                    >
                                    > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                    > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                                    > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                                    > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                    > philosophical sense.
                                    >
                                    > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                    >
                                    > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                                    > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                                    do
                                    > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thalprin
                                    >
                                  • thalprin
                                    PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 25 8:47 AM
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                                      PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
                                      you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                                      historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
                                      and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                                      the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
                                      to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                                      know/assure that we're being thorough.

                                      Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                                      illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                                      tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
                                      think I'd enjoy to help.

                                      Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                                      thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                                      add (if anything).

                                      Thalprin


                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

                                      http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                                      (Check out that 3rd category,)

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


                                      Some Codex:
                                      (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                                      are really such exceptional works,)

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



                                      http://www.vetuslatina.org/

                                      http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

                                      http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

                                      http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



                                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                                      > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                                      >
                                      > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                      > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                                      > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                                      > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                                      >
                                      > PMCV
                                      >
                                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                      > around,
                                      > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                                      > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                                      family
                                      > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                                      > > relatives.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                      > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                                      > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                                      > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                      > > philosophical sense.
                                      > >
                                      > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                      > >
                                      > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                                      > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                                      > do
                                      > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thalprin
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • thalprin
                                      ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 25 9:05 AM
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                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                                        project
                                        > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                                        > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                                        possible,
                                        > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                                        > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                                        links
                                        > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                                        > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                                        >
                                        > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                                        > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                                        > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                                        I
                                        > think I'd enjoy to help.
                                        >
                                        > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                                        > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                                        > add (if anything).
                                        >
                                        > Thalprin
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                                        >
                                        > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                                        > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Some Codex:
                                        > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                                        > are really such exceptional works,)
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                                        >


                                        Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                                        have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                                        >
                                        >
                                        > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                                        >
                                        > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                                        >
                                        > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                                        >
                                        > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                                        chart.
                                        > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                                        > >
                                        > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                        > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                                        graphic
                                        > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                                        is
                                        > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                                        > >
                                        > > PMCV
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                        > > around,
                                        > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                                        see/consider
                                        > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                                        > family
                                        > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                                        a/o
                                        > > > relatives.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                        > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                                        partly
                                        > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                                        be
                                        > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                        > > > philosophical sense.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                                        a
                                        > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                                        to
                                        > > do
                                        > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                                        examples.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thalprin
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • George
                                        Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
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                                          Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                          make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                          later.

                                          I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                                          of a Sadducee family.

                                          PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                                          possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                                          terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                                          This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                                          and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                                          comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                                          certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                                          to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                                          the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                                          he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                                          there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                                          This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                          to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                          way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                                          In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                          "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                          the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                          Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                                          Regards,

                                          George
                                        • pmcvflag
                                          George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
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                                            George

                                            >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                            make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                            later.

                                            <snipped for brevity>

                                            This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                            to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                            way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                                            Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                                            Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                                            we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                                            again.

                                            >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                            "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                            the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                            Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                                            I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                                            relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                                            response and maybe forgot?

                                            PMCV
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