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Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey all I was just thinking about a few recent issues that include the groups we list on our home page.... Manicheism, the Mandeans, the Cathars, Bogomils,
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 2, 2008
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      Hey all

      I was just thinking about a few recent issues that include the groups
      we list on our home page.... Manicheism, the Mandeans, the Cathars,
      Bogomils, Paulicians, Merkabah etc.. I was also thinking about Miguel's
      recent usage of the term "Jewish Gnosticism" to describe Kabbalah (a
      term that Dr Scholem also uses for the same reason), and the way some
      people talk about Hermetism as "Pagan Gnosticism".

      I was wondering if anyone here was aware of any books or charts that
      attempt a sort of taxonomy of Gnostic groups or categories? For those
      who may be unsure, by "taxonomy" I mean a sort of family tree, or set
      of categorical groupings like you find for animals or plants explaining
      lineage and relation. You know.... is it a kingdom, a family, a
      species, etc..

      Would anyone here find it useful to have a kind of visual chart that
      attempts to show these relationships?

      PMCV
    • thalprin
      Yes, I d like to see that, I think that d be interesting. Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location? ... groups ... Miguel s ... (a ... some ...
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 2, 2008
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        Yes, I'd like to see that, I think that'd be interesting.
        Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?


        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey all
        >
        > I was just thinking about a few recent issues that include the
        groups
        > we list on our home page.... Manicheism, the Mandeans, the Cathars,
        > Bogomils, Paulicians, Merkabah etc.. I was also thinking about
        Miguel's
        > recent usage of the term "Jewish Gnosticism" to describe Kabbalah
        (a
        > term that Dr Scholem also uses for the same reason), and the way
        some
        > people talk about Hermetism as "Pagan Gnosticism".
        >
        > I was wondering if anyone here was aware of any books or charts
        that
        > attempt a sort of taxonomy of Gnostic groups or categories? For
        those
        > who may be unsure, by "taxonomy" I mean a sort of family tree, or
        set
        > of categorical groupings like you find for animals or plants
        explaining
        > lineage and relation. You know.... is it a kingdom, a family, a
        > species, etc..
        >
        > Would anyone here find it useful to have a kind of visual chart
        that
        > attempts to show these relationships?
        >
        > PMCV
        >
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Thalprin ... Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 6, 2008
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          Hey Thalprin

          >>>Yes, I'd like to see that, I think that'd be interesting.
          Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?<<<

          I actually tried to create a timeline some years back, but I ran into
          some problems (partly basic computer problems). In any event, I think
          these charts would have to be unconnected. A timeline would not follow
          a taxonomy in this case. I'll play with some programs and see how I
          may best present this kind of chart on this forum. Any suggestions
          would be helpful.

          PMCV
        • thalprin
          Sounds good PMCV and thanks, this taxonomy could be very interesting I think - I ll look forward to seeing it. If any suggestions come to mind I ll certainly
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 7, 2008
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            Sounds good PMCV and thanks, this taxonomy could be very interesting I
            think - I'll look forward to seeing it. If any suggestions come to
            mind I'll certainly pass them along.

            Thalprin


            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey Thalprin
            >
            > >>>Yes, I'd like to see that, I think that'd be interesting.
            > Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?<<<
            >
            > I actually tried to create a timeline some years back, but I ran into
            > some problems (partly basic computer problems). In any event, I think
            > these charts would have to be unconnected. A timeline would not
            follow
            > a taxonomy in this case. I'll play with some programs and see how I
            > may best present this kind of chart on this forum. Any suggestions
            > would be helpful.
            >
            > PMCV
            >
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Thalprin Ok, I finally got the categorical graph done. It is in the Files section of our home page. http://tinyurl.com/ypvla3 I was trying to play with
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 13, 2008
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              Hey Thalprin

              Ok, I finally got the categorical graph done. It is in the "Files"
              section of our home page.

              http://tinyurl.com/ypvla3

              I was trying to play with some family tree programs and some better
              graphics programs, but in the end I realized that if I was ever
              going to get it done I needed to keep it simple. Even though I call
              this a "family tree", it is meant to show categorical relations
              rather than cause and effect. For instance, obviously Sethianism and
              Valentinianism are FORMS of Gnosticism, rather than something that
              grew out of Gnosticism. On the other hand, Kabbalah likely actually
              grew out of Merkabah.

              I should point out that some scholars (like Birger Pearson) believe
              that Hermetism actually does contain Biblical elements. If this is
              true, the chart would need to be adjusted accordingly.

              Anyone have thoughts, questions, points, etc?

              PMCV



              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sounds good PMCV and thanks, this taxonomy could be very
              interesting I
              > think - I'll look forward to seeing it. If any suggestions come
              to
              > mind I'll certainly pass them along.
              >
              > Thalprin
              >
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey Thalprin
              > >
              > > >>>Yes, I'd like to see that, I think that'd be interesting.
              > > Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?<<<
              > >
              > > I actually tried to create a timeline some years back, but I ran
              into
              > > some problems (partly basic computer problems). In any event, I
              think
              > > these charts would have to be unconnected. A timeline would not
              > follow
              > > a taxonomy in this case. I'll play with some programs and see
              how I
              > > may best present this kind of chart on this forum. Any
              suggestions
              > > would be helpful.
              > >
              > > PMCV
              > >
              >
            • thalprin
              It s nice PMCV, I like this graph. Something does come to mind, but I m not sure what that is as yet. Today I have a busy plate, tomorrow I ll see if I can
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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                It's nice PMCV, I like this graph.

                Something does come to mind, but I'm not sure what that is as yet.
                Today I have a busy plate, tomorrow I'll see if I can figure out what
                I'm feeling/thinking, or what's catching my eye.

                Thalprin


                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey Thalprin
                >
                > Ok, I finally got the categorical graph done. It is in the "Files"
                > section of our home page.
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/ypvla3
                >
                > I was trying to play with some family tree programs and some better
                > graphics programs, but in the end I realized that if I was ever
                > going to get it done I needed to keep it simple. Even though I call
                > this a "family tree", it is meant to show categorical relations
                > rather than cause and effect. For instance, obviously Sethianism
                and
                > Valentinianism are FORMS of Gnosticism, rather than something that
                > grew out of Gnosticism. On the other hand, Kabbalah likely actually
                > grew out of Merkabah.
                >
                > I should point out that some scholars (like Birger Pearson) believe
                > that Hermetism actually does contain Biblical elements. If this is
                > true, the chart would need to be adjusted accordingly.
                >
                > Anyone have thoughts, questions, points, etc?
                >
                > PMCV
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Sounds good PMCV and thanks, this taxonomy could be very
                > interesting I
                > > think - I'll look forward to seeing it. If any suggestions come
                > to
                > > mind I'll certainly pass them along.
                > >
                > > Thalprin
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hey Thalprin
                > > >
                > > > >>>Yes, I'd like to see that, I think that'd be interesting.
                > > > Perhaps would you include such as time line a/o location?<<<
                > > >
                > > > I actually tried to create a timeline some years back, but I
                ran
                > into
                > > > some problems (partly basic computer problems). In any event, I
                > think
                > > > these charts would have to be unconnected. A timeline would not
                > > follow
                > > > a taxonomy in this case. I'll play with some programs and see
                > how I
                > > > may best present this kind of chart on this forum. Any
                > suggestions
                > > > would be helpful.
                > > >
                > > > PMCV
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Michael Leavitt
                ... Pmvc, What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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                  pmcvflag wrote:
                  > I should point out that some scholars (like Birger Pearson) believe
                  > that Hermetism actually does contain Biblical elements. If this is
                  > true, the chart would need to be adjusted accordingly.
                  >
                  > Anyone have thoughts, questions, points, etc.
                  >
                  >
                  Pmvc,

                  What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.
                • pmcvflag
                  Hey Michael ... I don t remember the details (it isn t my theory... I just wanted to give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting), but
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 14, 2008
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                    Hey Michael

                    >>>What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<

                    I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
                    give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
                    but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
                    Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
                    for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
                    important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
                    stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.

                    Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.

                    It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
                    Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
                    do so just yet.

                    PMCV
                  • pmcvflag
                    I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I didn t want to change
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
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                      I actually had typed more on that post, but I was editing and I left
                      some things off on accident *lol*. I meant to add that the reason I
                      didn't want to change the graph right away is that I hoped a number
                      of people would have some points or questions dealing with the
                      categories that we could use to create a larger graph. Maybe some
                      people even have been thinking of the categories in a very different
                      way, or even disagree with this chart for some reason.

                      I was also trying to do the timeline, but I just can't seem to make
                      it look readable.

                      PMCV


                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Michael
                      >
                      > >>>What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
                      >
                      > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted
                      to
                      > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is
                      interesting),
                      > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
                      > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
                      > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
                      > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
                      > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my
                      view.
                      >
                      > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
                      >
                      > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic
                      point.
                      > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we
                      should
                      > do so just yet.
                      >
                      > PMCV
                      >
                    • Michael Leavitt
                      i AGREE.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 15, 2008
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                        i AGREE.

                        pmcvflag wrote:
                        > Hey Michael
                        >
                        >
                        >>>> What biblical elements are in Hermeticism, and where.<<<
                        >>>>
                        >
                        > I don't remember the details (it isn't my theory... I just wanted to
                        > give equal time for Pearson because I think his point is interesting),
                        > but if I recall it is in Pearson's book "Gnosticism, Judaism, and
                        > Egyptian Christianity". I don't believe he argues this
                        > for "Hermeticism" (as you state) but for "Hermetism" (there is an
                        > important difference). Either way, his point has been one of the
                        > stronger reasons to connect Sethianism with Hermetism... in my view.
                        >
                        > Still, there is a reason I did not include this view in my graph.
                        >
                        > It would be very easy to change the chart to reflect his basic point.
                        > Would you like me to do that? I will not lie, I don't think we should
                        > do so just yet.
                        >
                        > PMCV
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • thalprin
                        Hi PMCV, I m still thinking about this graph, but in the meantime I thought I d like to send a couple of links to a few of my favorite timelines:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
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                        • thalprin
                          PMCV, I ll tell you what I ve been thinking or I am kicking around, I m thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider making two graphs; one to
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 16, 2008
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                            PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking around,
                            I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                            making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                            tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                            relatives.

                            I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                            affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                            adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                            most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                            philosophical sense.

                            Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?

                            Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                            great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to do
                            so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.


                            Thalprin
                          • George
                            PMCV: What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 16, 2008
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                              PMCV:

                              What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                              this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

                              But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                              everyone) finds adequate.

                              What I have seen is that an inspirational idea like gnosticism
                              leap-frogs from one community to another.

                              Whether a gnostic system is raw or fully matured, there is leader
                              or community that becomes influenced by just reading about it, and
                              maybe even puts a new spin on it.

                              And there you have yet another gnostic group.

                              It's very much like Protestantism. Once you had a vigorous
                              tradition of religion not controlled by the pope, ideas just
                              lept from one part of the world to another... based on readings
                              or personal meetings.

                              If Billy Graham sells 50,000 tapes of his ideas and his preachings,
                              there are 50,000 possibilities that the person who receives the
                              tape will be inspired to do something ALMOST LIKE Billy Graham.

                              If he's on the East coast, and the new community is on the
                              West coast, who would know there was a connection, especially
                              if the new community has added an important (or not so important)
                              element to its theology or practice.

                              Conclusion?

                              While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                              be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                              I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                              is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                              What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                              Regards,


                              George
                            • pmcvflag
                              Hey George ... this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined. But let s say we get a definition that everyone (or most everyone) finds adequate.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 16, 2008
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                                Hey George

                                >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                                this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.

                                But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                                everyone) finds adequate.<<<

                                Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                                taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.

                                As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                                talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                                small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                                the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                                academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                                debate.

                                Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                                believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                                concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                                with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                                Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                                to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                                the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                                Existentialism with a capitol "E"?

                                Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                                those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                                Gnosticism.

                                PMCV
                              • Br Benjamin Assisi
                                ... dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes? .
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
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                                  While it may be difficult to build a FULL taxonomy, it should
                                  be quite possible to build a CHRONOLOGY of gnostic communities!

                                  I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor
                                  is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the Mandaens.
                                  What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the Mandaeans?

                                  Regards,


                                  George


                                  dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?
                                  .
                                • Sean
                                  I agree. All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 17, 2008
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                                    I agree.

                                    All definitions of Gnosticism, gnostism work and all do not work. For me it is like trying to
                                    define the wind. We know what the wind can do but does that define the wind.

                                    Pax!

                                    Sean


                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hey George
                                    >
                                    > >>>What a great idea ! To develop a taxonomy... naturally
                                    > this is subject to exactly how gnosticism is defined.
                                    >
                                    > But let's say we get a definition that everyone (or most
                                    > everyone) finds adequate.<<<
                                    >
                                    > Thanks, I'm glad you like it. I am still trying to work on the other
                                    > taxonomy that Thalprin suggests, as well as the timeline.
                                    >
                                    > As for the definition of Gnosticism (and in this forum we are
                                    > talking about Gnosticism with a capital "G", not gnosticism with the
                                    > small "g"), we are open to some tweeking and discussion.... but...
                                    > the fact that we will attempt to maintain the more
                                    > academic/historical definition as the base is frankly not open to
                                    > debate.
                                    >
                                    > Think of it another way; if "everyone" (in other forums)
                                    > believed "existentialism" was about any beliefs
                                    > concerning "existance", but there was one last forum dealing only
                                    > with "Existentialism" (the philosophical school)... why should that
                                    > Existentialist forum bow to "everybody" and try to redefine itself
                                    > to talk about the "existentialism" of common understanding? Doesn't
                                    > the Existentialist forum have a right to maintain its study of
                                    > Existentialism with a capitol "E"?
                                    >
                                    > Public opinion has a place, but this forum is the final refuge for
                                    > those who prefer disambiguation in their study of classical
                                    > Gnosticism.
                                    >
                                    > PMCV
                                    >
                                  • pmcvflag
                                    Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 20, 2008
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                                      Hey George and Ben

                                      George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
                                      the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
                                      left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
                                      Mandaeans?<<<

                                      Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

                                      Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
                                      is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
                                      (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
                                      study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
                                      that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

                                      As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
                                      little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
                                      of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
                                      the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
                                      Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
                                      can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
                                      can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
                                      particular group.

                                      Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
                                      other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
                                      this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
                                      we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
                                      which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

                                      Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
                                      question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
                                      Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
                                      removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
                                      states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
                                      Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
                                      accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
                                      appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
                                      accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
                                      theological influence from Islam.

                                      Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
                                      as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
                                      interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
                                      imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
                                      could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
                                      view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
                                      as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
                                      ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
                                      within a single cultural venue.

                                      PMCV
                                    • George
                                      I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 23, 2008
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                                        I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                                        Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                                        as well.

                                        This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
                                        later being a follower of John the Baptist.

                                        Regards,

                                        George
                                      • pmcvflag
                                        George ... as well.
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                          George

                                          >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
                                          as well.<<<

                                          I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
                                          Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
                                          doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

                                          Anyway, more important to our subject....

                                          >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
                                          Sadducees.<<<

                                          You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
                                          the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
                                          Ben.

                                          The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
                                          Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
                                          out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
                                          very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
                                          of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
                                          obviously far more possible.

                                          To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
                                          reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
                                          Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
                                          Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
                                          descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
                                          related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
                                          they look to be very Gnostic.

                                          Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
                                          Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
                                          mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
                                          shed some light on the subject.

                                          PMCV
                                        • pmcvflag
                                          Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                            Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                                            Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

                                            Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                            having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                                            tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                                            lacking). Anyone want to help?

                                            PMCV

                                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                            around,
                                            > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                                            > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
                                            > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                                            > relatives.
                                            >
                                            > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                            > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                                            > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                                            > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                            > philosophical sense.
                                            >
                                            > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                            >
                                            > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                                            > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                                            do
                                            > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thalprin
                                            >
                                          • thalprin
                                            PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
                                              you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                                              historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
                                              and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                                              the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
                                              to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                                              know/assure that we're being thorough.

                                              Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                                              illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                                              tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
                                              think I'd enjoy to help.

                                              Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                                              thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                                              add (if anything).

                                              Thalprin


                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

                                              http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                                              (Check out that 3rd category,)

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


                                              Some Codex:
                                              (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                                              are really such exceptional works,)

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



                                              http://www.vetuslatina.org/

                                              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

                                              http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

                                              http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



                                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
                                              > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                                              >
                                              > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                              > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
                                              > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
                                              > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                                              >
                                              > PMCV
                                              >
                                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                              > around,
                                              > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
                                              > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                                              family
                                              > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
                                              > > relatives.
                                              > >
                                              > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                              > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
                                              > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
                                              > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                              > > philosophical sense.
                                              > >
                                              > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                              > >
                                              > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
                                              > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
                                              > do
                                              > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Thalprin
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • thalprin
                                              ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                                                project
                                                > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                                                > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                                                possible,
                                                > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                                                > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                                                links
                                                > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                                                > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                                                >
                                                > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                                                > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                                                > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                                                I
                                                > think I'd enjoy to help.
                                                >
                                                > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                                                > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                                                > add (if anything).
                                                >
                                                > Thalprin
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                                                >
                                                > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                                                > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Some Codex:
                                                > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                                                > are really such exceptional works,)
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                                                >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                                                >


                                                Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                                                have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                                                >
                                                >
                                                > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                                                >
                                                > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                                                >
                                                > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                                                >
                                                > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                                                chart.
                                                > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                                                > >
                                                > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                                                > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                                                graphic
                                                > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                                                is
                                                > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                                                > >
                                                > > PMCV
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                                                > > around,
                                                > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                                                see/consider
                                                > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                                                > family
                                                > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                                                a/o
                                                > > > relatives.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                                                > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                                                partly
                                                > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                                                be
                                                > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                                                > > > philosophical sense.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                                                a
                                                > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                                                to
                                                > > do
                                                > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                                                examples.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Thalprin
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • George
                                                Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
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                                                  Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                                  make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                                  later.

                                                  I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                                                  of a Sadducee family.

                                                  PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                                                  possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                                                  terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                                                  This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                                                  and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                                                  comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                                                  certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                                                  to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                                                  the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                                                  he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                                                  there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                                                  This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                                  to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                                  way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                                                  In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                                  "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                                  the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                                  Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                                                  Regards,

                                                  George
                                                • pmcvflag
                                                  George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    George

                                                    >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                                                    make minor comments about things that could be very important
                                                    later.

                                                    <snipped for brevity>

                                                    This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                                                    to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                                                    way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                                                    Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                                                    Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                                                    we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                                                    again.

                                                    >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                                                    "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                                                    the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                                                    Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                                                    I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                                                    relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                                                    response and maybe forgot?

                                                    PMCV
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