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Re: Illusion/Allusion

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  • the_passerby7777
    Cari and PMCV, So I can reply to you both, since you guys are asking the same question and bringing up the same points. When I say illusion it is not in the
    Message 1 of 111 , Jan 10, 2008
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      Cari and PMCV,

      So I can reply to you both, since you guys are asking the same
      question and bringing up the same points. When I say "illusion" it is
      not in the same manner that a new ager says illusion. There is a bit
      of assumption and at the same time there is a bit of assumptions when
      interpreting the scriptures to get a whole vision of what they may
      have truly believe this world to be. For instance, I think the
      mythology is allegorical, if it was intended to be allegorical then
      that adds new dimensions to what they perceived this reality as. To me
      all scripture is metaphoric allegories that reflect the reality of
      mind and being, however since we are holographic and pertain the
      pattern, then it is analogous to what is external, that we abide within.

      Again, I see it as an allusion, this is far different from illusion,
      because it accepts the fact that it is an "reflective" reality, and by
      that has a substance of its own, but that it is pattern imbued of that
      which is beyond it. When it comes to the mind, it is not that
      perception is reality as they say, its the fact that the yes things
      ARE out there, however these things in its concreteness are more so
      allusions, or interpretations of vibrations, so it is vibrations of
      thought when you penetrate passed the appearance. But at its level it
      is there, the point is that at a higher level the faculties that
      seemingly hold it together breaks down and the phenomenon of material
      reality has more to do with the observer than anything else. So it is
      a misinterpretation to say that the material world is not "real," it
      is real at its level, but at another you see the working of the forces
      which hold it together. When it comes to me, since life is an allusion
      whether than a illusion, the things that exist, being reflective are
      as well allusions of our mind and being, and represent a level of
      consciousness, aspect associated with a level a being. It has to be
      understood, much of the people now cant help but to be contemporary
      and they bend to the discoveries at the time. Quantum Physics and its
      discoveries were huge for "mystics" because there was finally a
      scientific bases for "SOME" of the things that were being spoke about
      that many would call hogwash from a earth-based perspective.Albert
      Einstein himself said, "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very
      persistent one." But many would rather say that the discoveries how
      put matter into a different Light of understanding, one where the
      attention is taken from the "solidness of matter" to that which lays
      beneath it and explains such a phenomena in the field. Many would say
      that matter is a disturbance within the perfect state of the field,
      resulting from the engaging fields a blemish and that harmony can only
      be found in that which is beyond the material, as the laws which hold
      the material together, are revealed at a deeper phase and thus
      symmetry can only be found there. I would image that Gnostics of old
      would have knew these things, saying what they had about about the
      material environment. Perhaps we are seeking to make them so different
      from others that we miss the similarities, or perhaps we are not
      setting them apart enough.


      My POV when it comes to the Sethians is that they sought to focus on
      the predicament that man is within, and the necessity to characterize
      it as such as a urgent and compassing challenge that the people must
      come to consciousness about it. Me saying they were pissed was a bit
      of joke. Since it is very hard to to separate ones self from that
      which they interact with, since to me all things are allusions, its
      difficult to speak about something without filtering it through
      yourself, your own vision. Since I am not one that just reads
      scripture, but I actually believe these things and have experienced a
      variety of things which took away the foundational comforts that many
      have when they aren't in the know, I can say that my wold view was
      pretty bad at one point, but it has gotten better. If you noticed, in
      the ApOfJohn there is a mention of how the everyday mundane life is a
      trap by the archons, to plunge man further into what is counterfeit
      and of this world, to which they wallow deeper in the depravity of the
      cast of forgetfulness. There mention of the "Angels" of the Chief
      Archon ensnared the people into materiality, sort of fragmented them
      in a mundane way so that they would have worries, attachments, and
      wants that were strictly earthly, thus enslaving them further. That is
      my little summary of it, but they were obviously very standoffish
      towards the lifestyle and mindset of the commonality, of mundaneness
      and how ignorant it was. I am not saying I agree with all of what they
      may have thought, but to me it appears that they may have been a bit
      dualistic in thought. What I mean by that is, they seemed to only wan
      to see one aspect of the equation and not see it with a balanced
      vision of what can be made useful. Or maybe they DID see what was
      useful, but the point they had to convey outweighed it in its
      necessity.


      PMCV, I will get back to yourother post a bit later.

      Peace

      Ra.



      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "the_passerby7777" <rahimalka@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Cari,
      > >
      > >
      > > From the perspective of the scripture itself, what an allusion of
      > > truth would display or give the capacity of when rightfully understood
      > > are aspects of ones own being and how it relates to being ensnared. It
      > > has been said that basically everything beneath the "veil" is an
      > > allusion to the pattern of that which is above it, i.e. everything
      > > that the "demiurge" created was in reflection to the Aeons of Light
      > > (more importantly the first Aeon), and to me this is a concept that
      > > the pattern of the whole is reflected in every part at its level of
      > > course. So when it comes to "allusion" in regards a world view of the
      > > Sethians as I see it, the allusions of the world being quite like
      > > allegorical scriptures are necessary to be learned from, because it
      > > relates hidden things, which means it relates things from Above which
      > > could be better termed "within." A person while recognizing said
      > > patterns and turning them within, they will begin to learn how they
      > > must go, coming to see how the allusions without provide stimulus to
      > > the levels of their reality within, they will come to know what is in
      > > bondage, how it is in bondage to the "rulers" (or they will see their
      > > deficiency), and etc.
      > >
      > > The allusion has an applicable application; it is a design that is
      > > imbued by reason of the fact that it's a reflective reality of above,
      > > so many things that are esoteric are hidden within the image of what
      > > is, it reflects the indwelling realities of being, as above when
      > > applied to us is more so referring to the "within". I would image that
      > > if the Sethians wrote scriptures with the images and types of the
      > > world imbued in them to relate things of meaning, that they would
      > > think the allusion is to be learned from, to the very least something
      > > to make use out of. If they knew how to apply the physical sense into
      > > an esoteric way to relate important realities to those who would
      > > become initiates, to me that would clearly indicate that they know
      > > while it is an illusion that one must overcome its still something
      > > that can be learned from. You could call it an allusion of suffering,
      > > I don't see how things being an allusion takes away from the reality
      > > that it is an illusion, and it's just a manner of making use out of
      > > everything to gain knowledge that will benefit you in escaping. And
      > > yes if one reads the scriptures from a direct objective POV, yes
      > > Sethians seem like some pretty pissed off guys about the world in
      > > general, a very negative POV over the Valentinians. One can see this
      > > by their description of the Yahweh God.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello, Ra. Thank you for your response. I'm following you up to
      > this point.
      >
      >
      >
      > If the Sethians were "pretty pissed off" about the world in
      > general, were they pissed off about an illusion? The Gnostics
      > considered the world of being imperfect, transient and corruptible, not
      > the incorruptible Pleroma. However, is there no real component to our
      > world? Another way to put it might be whether the Gnostics wanted to
      > escape suffering, considered as only an illusion, or whether suffering
      > was real, but something to transcend or escape? Is the illusion the
      > world itself or is it an illusion to think of our world as the only
      > reality? Or something else?
      >
      >
      >
      > I'm just trying to clarify what you're saying about what the
      > Gnostics thought. I'm wondering whether they were fantasizers or
      > escapists trying to escape into metaphorical, inner Truth or whether
      > they were learning and dealing with worldly life, too, by means of
      > prototypes and images sent to our world. Our world, illusion or not,
      > was still enough to infuriate the Sethians.
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      >
      >
      > Cari
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Even though the majority of that is of course my point of view. I feel
      > > that everything, all images are an image of Truth in the sense of
      > > those realities that remain concealed, or esoteric. In the Phillip
      > > Gospel when it is said that, "Truth did not come into the world naked,
      > > but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in
      > > any other way." To me this suggest that there is a natural deficiency
      > > or limitation in people where at this level of mind and being
      > > naturally that they can't comprehend anything that isn't in the "form"
      > > of what relates to their experience, an image of their nature. I know
      > > objectively how this is perceived, that the image of Truth that is
      > > being referred to has to be embodiment from the above, hence at most
      > > the image is referring to what they perceived "Jesus" to accomplish
      > > and that the "works" and "his likeness" was Truth come to their level.
      > > But I see Jesus/Yeshua, at least from the scripture standpoint, as a
      > > complete allegory. Personally speaking I don't think it is possible to
      > > write any scripture without first having an understanding of the
      > > allegory of the images in this world. Scriptures to me have a
      > > metaphoric meaning. Perhaps what I wrote doesn't apply from a outside
      > > POV, but it does to me, regardless.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas no_reply@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "the_passerby7777" <rahimalka@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Cari,
      > > > >
      > > > > If you ask me there is Truth all out there, but it is perceived in
      > > > > fragments, as one expands their mind, develops their mind, they
      > begin
      > > > > to see further that the images and types represent aspects of
      > Truth,
      > > > > as if it were a living scroll allegoric to their own inner
      > cosmology
      > > > > of mind and being, but of course there is more than this. The
      > illusion
      > > > > of this world is more so styled a allusion in Gnosticism, whereas
      > the
      > > > > Eastern Paths just count it as illusion, I would gather.
      > > > >
      > > > > Peace
      > > > >
      > > > > Ra.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ra, how does this jive with the theme of escaping from the "prison
      > > > of the body" or dwelling "in the bonds of the prison" as
      > > > described in The Secret Book According to John, for instance? Is the
      > > > "prison" really just imagery as allusion to Truth, incorrectly
      > > > and limitedly interpreted as fetters (until one is awakened), or is
      > it
      > > > evil illusion to entirely escape from? If Truth came "in the form
      > > > of images," does that mean all images were considered allusions to
      > > > Truth?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Do you think Sethians had a bit harsher view of this world than the
      > > > Valentinians? Or just a different way of expressing awakening?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Others are welcome to join in conversation, too.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Cari
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Michael Leavitt
      SORRY. :)
      Message 111 of 111 , Jan 16, 2008
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        SORRY. :)

        pmcvflag wrote:
        > Michael...
        >
        >
        >>>> Seemed like all your other posts to me. :)<<<
        >>>>
        >
        > Doh! Just because you are right doesn't mean you are not a pain in the
        > ass! *lol*. If you can let a guy PRETEND his spelling is not ALWAYS
        > bad you let him keep his dignity.... if just a little. You know...
        > just for the sake of Chivalry. ;)
        >
        > PMCV
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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