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Re: Judas

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  • lady_caritas
    ... Thank you! ... Ah, well I just visited her blog to check that entry and became aware that she more recently has offered what perhaps substantiates my idea
    Message 1 of 48 , Dec 3, 2007
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
      > >>>Hello, PMCV. I just might be missing the obvious, since I don't
      > feel particularly cogent today (lol), but you mention various works
      > and I was wondering where the quote is taken from.<<<
      > Sorry. I am just being overly fast in trying to join in the
      > conversation. This is a fault on my side, not yours. The quote I
      > mentioned is from the Hermetica xii #1.

      Thank you!

      > >>>Also, where did you read April DeConick say that "it is `simply
      > accepted' that the word daimon translates as demon"?<<<
      > Here is the more accurate version from her blog on Oct 15th:
      > "I began to wonder why the NG team translated in reference to
      > Judas "daimon" as "spirit" when its most accepted translation
      > is "demon.""
      > My original paraphrase may have been overly emphatic, but it seems
      > to me the point I figured on her part is still there.

      Ah, well I just visited her blog to check that entry and became aware that she more recently has offered what perhaps substantiates my idea that when she mentions "most accepted translation," she is referring to works that are of the same genre as Gospel of Judas.  Please check out her entry from today, 12-3-07, "Responses to New York Time Op.Ed."  Yes, she wrote an Op.Ed. on 12-1-07, part of which I'll refer to in a subsequent post.



      > >>>The impression I get from her book is that, although she does
      > briefly trace the changing meaning of daimon as I wrote earlier, she
      > does so to illustrate a general trend. She concentrates more fully
      > on Jewish and Christian meaning, especially as related to Gnostic
      > sources.<<<
      > I would say this is important, but that it may not be so good to
      > concentrate on one (or two) subsection of a two (or three) part
      > syncratic hermeneutic.

      So as not to assume, PMCV, how are you defining all these parts and subsections? 

      > >>>When it comes to her footnote citing actual incidences of the
      > word usage (over four dozen examples in ten Gnostic works, showing a
      > negative connotation), her illustration narrows down specific
      > examples perhaps most relevant for comparison, considering that the
      > Gospel of Judas is viewed as Gnostic (Sethian) literature. BTW, she
      > offers as one example, Zostrianos, 43.12.<<<
      > Didn't she talk about the other example in Zostrianos that I
      > previously mentioned? Since she states 52 instances, she surely
      > would count all of the examples within the same book.... not just
      > the ones that support her idea. Or what about the other period texts
      > that I offer? I am a little confused since I have not read the book
      > (though I hate to present my own confusion).
      > PMCV

      Good point.  PMCV, you might want to bring that up with her as a comment on her blog.  She seems to be responding to commentators.  :-)




    • pmcvflag
      Hey Sean and Gerry Sean ... both versions of this gospel work for me. I guess I have been moving further away from the literalism I was bought up with. I think
      Message 48 of 48 , Jan 3, 2008
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        Hey Sean and Gerry


        >>>It might be just crazy logic on my part, but I am finding that
        both versions of this gospel work for me. I guess I have been moving
        further away from the literalism I was bought up with. I think I am
        seeing them both as, myths with a message. I can see messages in
        both versions that work for me.

        I think that they are both myths and neither one is the literal
        truth. Hmmm... I feel strange putting my thinking into these

        I agree with you and Gerry on this. It doesn't matter to me which
        turns out to be true. They both "work for me" as you put it. From a
        mythological POV, both readings seem to hold value.

        On the other hand you mention feeling strange about stating this,
        Sean. I don't know your thinking or feelings on the issue, but I can
        think of one thing that would make me feel uncomfortable about
        putting both versions on equal ground based on whether they "work
        for me". Imagine a person who hears what they wish from all the
        people around them. Are they really communicating? This could be as
        simple as "I want a cookie" and the person answering may say yes or
        may say no, but we hear yes either way (like the example in the
        Symposium). Or worse, imagine a person on a date who asks the other
        person for sex and only hears the answer they want whether it is the
        answer the other person intends or not. Is hearing what "works for
        me" always good?

        I think the fact that they are myths with a message is generally
        agreed, but does that mean we shouldn't worry about the intent of
        the author of the myth at hand? Many readers may assume that texts
        like these are a one way communication, take what you will and no
        harm done (as Sylvia Browne would tell us). I contend that there is
        still a two way communication, and the primary value is not one

        I am interested in the mythological value and how it works for us
        all on various levels. I simply mean to interject that the issue of
        what the author intended is not valueless.

        >>>It doesn't look like crazy logic at all. I find myself very much
        in agreement with your comments. I think that what prompted my
        initial reservations with Dr. DeConick's position on this subject
        was that she seemed to come across as saying that National
        Geographic's preliminary interpretation of the gospel was NOT
        Gnostic while hers WAS. That struck me as quite strange since I had
        no problem seeing that a "good" Judas might have indeed been the
        sort of twist on a traditional story that we might have expected
        from Gnostic authors. As I think I mentioned earlier, however,
        after finally seeing DeConick's actual translation, I believe that
        her version flows much more naturally—unlike the NG version that did
        come across as a plausible Gnostic redaction, but nevertheless left
        me with some nagging questions.<<<

        I think I had the same reservations as you, Gerry. As I have read
        her book I have found some of those reservations answered. I have to
        admit, though, I am still finding some problems. As far as the issue
        of translation, I think DeConick has made some solid points. For
        instance, when I read about Seth and Jesus as Archons in the NG
        translation it hit me as very odd. DeConick's explination hit
        something that was already nagging me.

        On the other hand, I find myself wondering about some of her methods
        when she is using the same format she says she is fighting against.
        For instance, she debates the word "exceed" (56), and says it should
        be "do worse than". She says that "exceed" could be taken
        positively, as in "to do better", and she is against that. The
        problem is that she is slanting the translation just as much as the
        version she is debating.

        To me, the word "exceed" could be good or bad. One could exceed at
        evil as much as good. While I see her point, I don't want her to
        figure the context for me if she is accusing the other translators
        of doing the same. If the word itself can be taken two ways, a good
        translator will not change that even if the context seems obvious.
        Even without knowing Coptic I can see that "do worse than" is just
        as poor translation as the version she is fighting. Her point is
        strong, but it is also strong against herself.

        She has made some important points about the possible evil of Judas
        in this text, but I still have problems with her assumption about
        the term "Daimon". In a way this point may seem unimportant. It
        really may not mean anything in this particular debate. However, the
        way she framed the issue seems to extend beyond this particular

        I guess what I am saying is that I think my reservations about her
        points are the same as the ones you express. Her points could be
        right, but her methods of reaching those points raise some red
        flags. I am not yet past those red flags.


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