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Re: Classifications among the Valentinians

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  • Nicholas Doolilttle
    ... messiah?
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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      >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
      messiah?<<<

      I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's   Vision and the Voice.
       
      Vision and voice p134
       
      --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
      Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
      the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
      worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
      Belial is worshiped by men under the name
      of Buddha.
       
       
      I Imagine
       
      that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
      are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
      who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
      us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
      the Truth.
       
      or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
      I couldnt explain how I Know that.
      I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
      because you dared to even try to do what is right.
      Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
      one to bring the light to the world.
    • Mark
      dwain, I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which speaks to one is part
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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        dwain,

        I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
        alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
        speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
        interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.

        Mark

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
        >
        > Mark wrote:
        > >
        > > Cari,
        > >
        > > The person directly experiences the
        > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
        > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
        with
        > > me.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
        crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
        the baptist was the true messiah?
        >
        > dwain
        > --
        > Dwain Alford
        > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
        >
        > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
        > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
        >
      • Mark
        ... a ... pastor ... into ... Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain I would ask him to leave and not come back and call
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:


          > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
          > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
          > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
          a
          > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
          > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
          > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
          > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
          > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
          pastor
          > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
          > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
          into
          > a Mandaean. ;-)
          >

          Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
          I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
          (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
          of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
          inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
          healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
          trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
          of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
          http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

          I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
          person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
          feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
          them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
          speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

          I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

          Mark
        • Lisa
          Hi everyone, I ve been a member here for a little while but not sure I ve ever posted. Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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            Hi everyone,
            I've been a member here for a little while but not sure I've ever posted.
            Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this conversation :)
            If anyone (Mark ?) has an opinion about Interfaith Seminary schools (for
            example: http://newseminary.org/ ) and ordination as an Interfaith Minister
            I would love to read it.

            Thanks!
            Lisa

            ________________________________________
            From: Mark
            Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:33 PM
            To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Classifications among the Valentinians
            Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
            I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
            (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
            of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
            inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
            healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
            trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
            of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
            http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

            I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
            person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
            feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
            them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
            speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

            I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

            Mark
            .
          • dwain
            ... not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible by barnstone and meyer. dwain -- Dwain Alford web: http://www.studiokdd.com The
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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              Nicholas Doolilttle wrote:
              > >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
              > messiah?<<<
              >
              > I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's Vision and the Voice.
              >
              > Vision and voice p134
              >
              > --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
              > Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
              > the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
              > worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
              > Belial is worshiped by men under the name
              > of Buddha.
              >
              >
              > I Imagine
              >
              > that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
              > are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
              > who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
              > us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
              > the Truth.
              >
              > or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
              > I couldnt explain how I Know that.
              > I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
              > because you dared to even try to do what is right.
              > Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
              > one to bring the light to the world.
              >
              not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible
              by barnstone and meyer.

              dwain

              --
              Dwain Alford
              web: http://www.studiokdd.com

              "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
              for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
            • dwain
              ... it s not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good in that
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                Mark wrote:
                >
                > dwain,
                >
                > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                >
                > Mark
                >
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Mark wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Cari,
                > > >
                > > > The person directly experiences the
                > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
                > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
                > with
                > > > me.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                > the baptist was the true messiah?
                > >
                > > dwain
                > > --
                > > Dwain Alford
                > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                > >
                > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                > >
                >
                >
                it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you
                call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good
                in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in a
                christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what one was
                raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds with "catholic"
                (read universal) orthodoxy.

                dwain

                --
                Dwain Alford
                web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
              • lady_caritas
                ... wanted ... . Mark, thank you for the article. It was very informative. I can see
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas no_reply@ wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
                  > > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
                  > > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
                  > a
                  > > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
                  > > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
                  > > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
                  > > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
                  > > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
                  > pastor
                  > > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
                  > > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
                  > into
                  > > a Mandaean. ;-)
                  > >
                  >
                  > Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                  > I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                  > (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                  > of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                  > inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                  > healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                  > trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                  > of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                  > http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                  Mark, thank you for the article.  It was very informative.  I can see that when approached with training and sensitivity, a hospital staff chaplain's work can be quite challenging as well as satisfying.

                  I'll repost your link without the added ending period, so that members can access the article more easily:

                  http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html

                   

                  > I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                  > person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                  > feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                  > them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                  > speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.
                  >
                  > I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!
                  >
                  > Mark
                  >

                  You're welcome, Mark.  I'll be interested to hear whatever you care to share about Valentinians and Sethians that speaks to you, whenever you have some time.

                  Cari 

                • Mark
                  dwain, I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective, the more it may
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                    dwain,

                    I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                    perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                    the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                    part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                    persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                    am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                    (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."


                    BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                    relationship between form and content.

                    Mark

                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mark wrote:
                    > >
                    > > dwain,
                    > >
                    > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                    > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                    > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                    > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                    > >
                    > > Mark
                    > >
                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                    wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Mark wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Cari,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The person directly experiences the
                    > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                    personal
                    > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                    better
                    > > with
                    > > > > me.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                    > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                    > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                    > > >
                    > > > dwain
                    > > > --
                    > > > Dwain Alford
                    > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                    > > >
                    > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                    > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                    as you
                    > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                    good
                    > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                    a
                    > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                    one was
                    > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                    with "catholic"
                    > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                    >
                    > dwain
                    >
                    > --
                    > Dwain Alford
                    > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
                    >
                    > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                    > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                    >
                  • dwain
                    ... thanks. i rather like it too. a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood, holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                      Mark wrote:
                      >
                      > dwain,
                      >
                      > I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                      > perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                      > the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                      > part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                      > persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                      > am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                      > (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."
                      >
                      > BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                      > relationship between form and content.
                      >
                      > Mark
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Mark wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > dwain,
                      > > >
                      > > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                      > > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                      > > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                      > > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                      > > >
                      > > > Mark
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mark wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Cari,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The person directly experiences the
                      > > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                      > personal
                      > > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                      > better
                      > > > with
                      > > > > > me.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                      > > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                      > > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > dwain
                      > > > > --
                      > > > > Dwain Alford
                      > > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                      > <http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>>
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                      > > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                      > as you
                      > > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                      > good
                      > > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                      > a
                      > > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                      > one was
                      > > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                      > with "catholic"
                      > > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                      > >
                      > > dwain
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > Dwain Alford
                      > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                      > >
                      > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                      > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      thanks. i rather like it too.

                      a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood,
                      holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and their contributions.

                      dwain

                      --
                      Dwain Alford
                      web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                      "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                      for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
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