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Re: Classifications among the Valentinians

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  • lady_caritas
    ... Ah, and here is more about angels: http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Joined_Angel.htm
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007


      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
      >
      > Cari,
      >
      > Thanks for this link. I will have to spend some time with it. I did
      > notice one thing that provided a fuller context for what is found in
      > some teachings, such as the Golden Dawn and especially Thelema, about
      > what is often called one's "Higher Guardian Angel" or HGA. This is
      > where the article states, "In order to become identified with the
      > spiritual element, the person must attain a state of mystical
      > knowledge (gnosis) of God. The person directly experiences the
      > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
      > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better with
      > me.
      >

      Ah, and here is more about angels:

      http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Joined_Angel.htm

       

       

      > As for the context of "spiritual care," I work as a healthcare
      > chaplain and in this profession in our literature we often wrestle
      > with what adjective to use to describe our work: spiritual and/or
      > pastoral. In short, I personally prefer "spiritual," since the care
      > I provide is based primarily on my response to the other person's
      > expressed spirituality as opposed to flowing from own authority as an
      > ordained pastor within a faith community. The problem, however, is
      > that everybody uses "spiritual" and "spirituality," but no body
      > really knows what it is. So as I read various things related to my
      > own spiritual path, I always look for insights that may help develop
      > a better tool for providing spiritual assessments within a clinical
      > setting, which normally should begin with a good definition of
      > terms. Most people who write on this topic pass over this problem of
      > defintion and go straight to discussing assessment tools. I am tired
      > of that.
      >
      > Maybe that was more than you were asking regarding context.
      >
      > Mark
      >
      >

       

      Mark, not at all.  Thank you for sharing this.  Defining "spiritual" or "spirituality" does seem like a daunting task when considering all the individual, not only sectarian, ideas on this subject.  After all, someone's definition for "spiritual" might be another's definition for "psychic."  :-)  I do applaud you, though, Mark, for considering the individual's expression on the subject.

       

      I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual" care from pastors, etc.  This past year I was in a surgical lounge of a metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.  I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted to pray with him.  He was offering a Christian prayer.  I'm sure many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the pastor initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up.  One might even run into a Mandaean.  ;-) 

       

      At least general definitions of terms to suit broad categories of religions might be a starting point or backdrop before assessing more individual expression if the one administering care deals with people from a variety of spiritual backgrounds. 

       

      Cari

       

       

    • pmcvflag
      Hey Dwain You ask... ... and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can share?
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
        Hey Dwain

        You ask...

        >>>exactly who i was speaking of. who did the more sensitive evaluation
        and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can
        share?<<<

        Hmmm, now that you mention it I don't really even know of many
        websites on the subject. I guess I can't be very helpful in that way.
        I am far from a specialist when it comes to the Mandaeans, so I am
        only quoting the story as I have heard it. According to Lady Drower,
        one of the early researchers of these people, she initially
        categorized Mandaeans as "Gnostics" because a friend of hers (I
        believe it was Quispel, if I remember correctly) convinced her they
        must be connected. She states that at the time she didn't know much
        about "Gnosticism" (though she knew very much about Mandaeans and
        Quispel did not), and in her later books she recants her initial
        categorization because as she learned more about Gnosticism she felt
        they were actually quite different. In other words, the person who
        categorized them this way in the first place is the one later points
        out that the categorization was overly hasty.

        By that time, though, I guess the damage was done, so to speak.
        Depending on her early observations many other authors who are either
        specialists in Gnosticism but not Mandaeans, or in Mandaeans but not
        Gnosticism have recounted the similarities and lumped them together.
        For instance, Rudolph does so in "Gnosis". I even have a book by
        Lupieri called "Mandaeans; the last Gnostics". The problem is that
        Rudolph simply takes it for granted that they must be Gnostics, and
        doesn't really explain why that would be so. Lupieri, on the other
        hand, does try to explain the connection but he is not as well
        informed about Gnosticism so some of the things he seems to set up as
        points of similarity don't actually work very well.

        Although it came out that way in my previous post, I don't actually
        intend to say that the Mandaeans COULDN'T be in some way categorized
        as Gnosticism (the way I tend to with Manichaeans). It could be a good
        conversation to explore right here on the forum. If you have some
        specific similarities in mind we can certainly test them and see what
        everyone thinks about it.

        It seems to me that one of the most common things I hear people
        mention as important in connecting the two movements is the
        name "Mandaean" itself. The problem with this is that it is not what
        they traditionally called themselves. I am skeptical about the role of
        esoteric knowing in the soteriology of the Mandaeans, and this is the
        sort of thing I think we need to be sensetive about when we deal with
        the issue. What I have read about the Mandaeans has implied to me that
        their salvational beliefs actually place the emphasis on ritual
        practice rather than on some kind of "Gnosis". Perhaps you can help
        clarify this issue for us in the course of conversation.

        PMCV
      • Nicholas Doolilttle
        ... messiah?
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
          >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
          messiah?<<<

          I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's   Vision and the Voice.
           
          Vision and voice p134
           
          --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
          Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
          the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
          worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
          Belial is worshiped by men under the name
          of Buddha.
           
           
          I Imagine
           
          that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
          are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
          who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
          us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
          the Truth.
           
          or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
          I couldnt explain how I Know that.
          I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
          because you dared to even try to do what is right.
          Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
          one to bring the light to the world.
        • Mark
          dwain, I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which speaks to one is part
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
            dwain,

            I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
            alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
            speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
            interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.

            Mark

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mark wrote:
            > >
            > > Cari,
            > >
            > > The person directly experiences the
            > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
            > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
            with
            > > me.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
            crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
            the baptist was the true messiah?
            >
            > dwain
            > --
            > Dwain Alford
            > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
            >
            > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
            > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
            >
          • Mark
            ... a ... pastor ... into ... Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain I would ask him to leave and not come back and call
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:


              > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
              > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
              > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
              a
              > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
              > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
              > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
              > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
              > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
              pastor
              > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
              > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
              into
              > a Mandaean. ;-)
              >

              Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
              I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
              (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
              of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
              inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
              healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
              trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
              of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
              http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

              I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
              person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
              feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
              them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
              speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

              I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

              Mark
            • Lisa
              Hi everyone, I ve been a member here for a little while but not sure I ve ever posted. Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
                Hi everyone,
                I've been a member here for a little while but not sure I've ever posted.
                Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this conversation :)
                If anyone (Mark ?) has an opinion about Interfaith Seminary schools (for
                example: http://newseminary.org/ ) and ordination as an Interfaith Minister
                I would love to read it.

                Thanks!
                Lisa

                ________________________________________
                From: Mark
                Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:33 PM
                To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Classifications among the Valentinians
                Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

                I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

                Mark
                .
              • dwain
                ... not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible by barnstone and meyer. dwain -- Dwain Alford web: http://www.studiokdd.com The
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
                  Nicholas Doolilttle wrote:
                  > >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
                  > messiah?<<<
                  >
                  > I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's Vision and the Voice.
                  >
                  > Vision and voice p134
                  >
                  > --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
                  > Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
                  > the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
                  > worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
                  > Belial is worshiped by men under the name
                  > of Buddha.
                  >
                  >
                  > I Imagine
                  >
                  > that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
                  > are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
                  > who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
                  > us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
                  > the Truth.
                  >
                  > or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
                  > I couldnt explain how I Know that.
                  > I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
                  > because you dared to even try to do what is right.
                  > Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
                  > one to bring the light to the world.
                  >
                  not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible
                  by barnstone and meyer.

                  dwain

                  --
                  Dwain Alford
                  web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                  "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                  for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                • dwain
                  ... it s not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good in that
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
                    Mark wrote:
                    >
                    > dwain,
                    >
                    > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                    > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                    > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                    > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                    >
                    > Mark
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Mark wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Cari,
                    > > >
                    > > > The person directly experiences the
                    > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
                    > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
                    > with
                    > > > me.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                    > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                    > the baptist was the true messiah?
                    > >
                    > > dwain
                    > > --
                    > > Dwain Alford
                    > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                    > >
                    > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                    > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you
                    call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good
                    in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in a
                    christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what one was
                    raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds with "catholic"
                    (read universal) orthodoxy.

                    dwain

                    --
                    Dwain Alford
                    web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                    "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                    for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                  • lady_caritas
                    ... wanted ... . Mark, thank you for the article. It was very informative. I can see
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007


                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas no_reply@ wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
                      > > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
                      > > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
                      > a
                      > > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
                      > > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
                      > > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
                      > > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
                      > > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
                      > pastor
                      > > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
                      > > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
                      > into
                      > > a Mandaean. ;-)
                      > >
                      >
                      > Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                      > I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                      > (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                      > of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                      > inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                      > healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                      > trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                      > of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                      > http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                      Mark, thank you for the article.  It was very informative.  I can see that when approached with training and sensitivity, a hospital staff chaplain's work can be quite challenging as well as satisfying.

                      I'll repost your link without the added ending period, so that members can access the article more easily:

                      http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html

                       

                      > I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                      > person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                      > feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                      > them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                      > speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.
                      >
                      > I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!
                      >
                      > Mark
                      >

                      You're welcome, Mark.  I'll be interested to hear whatever you care to share about Valentinians and Sethians that speaks to you, whenever you have some time.

                      Cari 

                    • Mark
                      dwain, I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective, the more it may
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
                        dwain,

                        I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                        perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                        the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                        part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                        persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                        am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                        (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."


                        BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                        relationship between form and content.

                        Mark

                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mark wrote:
                        > >
                        > > dwain,
                        > >
                        > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                        > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                        > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                        > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                        > >
                        > > Mark
                        > >
                        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                        > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                        wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Mark wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Cari,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The person directly experiences the
                        > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                        personal
                        > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                        better
                        > > with
                        > > > > me.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                        > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                        > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                        > > >
                        > > > dwain
                        > > > --
                        > > > Dwain Alford
                        > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                        > > >
                        > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                        > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                        as you
                        > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                        good
                        > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                        a
                        > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                        one was
                        > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                        with "catholic"
                        > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                        >
                        > dwain
                        >
                        > --
                        > Dwain Alford
                        > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
                        >
                        > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                        > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                        >
                      • dwain
                        ... thanks. i rather like it too. a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood, holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
                          Mark wrote:
                          >
                          > dwain,
                          >
                          > I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                          > perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                          > the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                          > part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                          > persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                          > am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                          > (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."
                          >
                          > BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                          > relationship between form and content.
                          >
                          > Mark
                          >
                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mark wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > dwain,
                          > > >
                          > > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                          > > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                          > > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                          > > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                          > > >
                          > > > Mark
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mark wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Cari,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The person directly experiences the
                          > > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                          > personal
                          > > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                          > better
                          > > > with
                          > > > > > me.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                          > > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                          > > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > dwain
                          > > > > --
                          > > > > Dwain Alford
                          > > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                          > <http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                          > > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                          > as you
                          > > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                          > good
                          > > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                          > a
                          > > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                          > one was
                          > > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                          > with "catholic"
                          > > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                          > >
                          > > dwain
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Dwain Alford
                          > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                          > >
                          > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                          > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          thanks. i rather like it too.

                          a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood,
                          holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and their contributions.

                          dwain

                          --
                          Dwain Alford
                          web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                          "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                          for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
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