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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Classifications among the Valentinians

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  • dwain
    ... how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 27, 2007
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      Mark wrote:
      >
      > Cari,
      >
      > The person directly experiences the
      > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
      > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better with
      > me.
      >






      how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true messiah?

      dwain
      --
      Dwain Alford
      web: http://www.studiokdd.com

      "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
      for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Dwain ... crucifixion was a sham
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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        Hey Dwain

        >>>how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
        crucifixion was a sham<<<<

        In what way? There is the idea in some texts that it was not the
        Christ that died. In Gnostic texts this is sometimes connected to
        something called "docetism", but there are other ideas that fit your
        bill.

        >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
        messiah?<<<

        I think you may be mixing a few things. Just because something may
        sometimes be called "Heretic" or is unusual by modern Christian
        thinking does not mean it is specifically "Gnostic". You may be
        talking about the Mandaeans. There was a time when this group was
        called "Gnostic", but more sensitive evaluation shows they may not be.

        PMCV
      • dwain
        ... exactly who i was speaking of. who did the more sensitive evaluation and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can share? dwain
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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          pmcvflag wrote:
          >
          > >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
          > messiah?<<<
          >
          > I think you may be mixing a few things. Just because something may
          > sometimes be called "Heretic" or is unusual by modern Christian
          > thinking does not mean it is specifically "Gnostic". You may be
          > talking about the Mandaeans. There was a time when this group was
          > called "Gnostic", but more sensitive evaluation shows they may not be.
          >


          >
          > PMCV
          >
          >

          exactly who i was speaking of. who did the more sensitive evaluation
          and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can
          share?

          dwain

          --
          Dwain Alford
          web: http://www.studiokdd.com

          "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
          for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
        • lady_caritas
          ... Ah, and here is more about angels: http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Joined_Angel.htm
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
            >
            > Cari,
            >
            > Thanks for this link. I will have to spend some time with it. I did
            > notice one thing that provided a fuller context for what is found in
            > some teachings, such as the Golden Dawn and especially Thelema, about
            > what is often called one's "Higher Guardian Angel" or HGA. This is
            > where the article states, "In order to become identified with the
            > spiritual element, the person must attain a state of mystical
            > knowledge (gnosis) of God. The person directly experiences the
            > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
            > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better with
            > me.
            >

            Ah, and here is more about angels:

            http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Joined_Angel.htm

             

             

            > As for the context of "spiritual care," I work as a healthcare
            > chaplain and in this profession in our literature we often wrestle
            > with what adjective to use to describe our work: spiritual and/or
            > pastoral. In short, I personally prefer "spiritual," since the care
            > I provide is based primarily on my response to the other person's
            > expressed spirituality as opposed to flowing from own authority as an
            > ordained pastor within a faith community. The problem, however, is
            > that everybody uses "spiritual" and "spirituality," but no body
            > really knows what it is. So as I read various things related to my
            > own spiritual path, I always look for insights that may help develop
            > a better tool for providing spiritual assessments within a clinical
            > setting, which normally should begin with a good definition of
            > terms. Most people who write on this topic pass over this problem of
            > defintion and go straight to discussing assessment tools. I am tired
            > of that.
            >
            > Maybe that was more than you were asking regarding context.
            >
            > Mark
            >
            >

             

            Mark, not at all.  Thank you for sharing this.  Defining "spiritual" or "spirituality" does seem like a daunting task when considering all the individual, not only sectarian, ideas on this subject.  After all, someone's definition for "spiritual" might be another's definition for "psychic."  :-)  I do applaud you, though, Mark, for considering the individual's expression on the subject.

             

            I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual" care from pastors, etc.  This past year I was in a surgical lounge of a metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.  I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted to pray with him.  He was offering a Christian prayer.  I'm sure many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the pastor initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up.  One might even run into a Mandaean.  ;-) 

             

            At least general definitions of terms to suit broad categories of religions might be a starting point or backdrop before assessing more individual expression if the one administering care deals with people from a variety of spiritual backgrounds. 

             

            Cari

             

             

          • pmcvflag
            Hey Dwain You ask... ... and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can share?
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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              Hey Dwain

              You ask...

              >>>exactly who i was speaking of. who did the more sensitive evaluation
              and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can
              share?<<<

              Hmmm, now that you mention it I don't really even know of many
              websites on the subject. I guess I can't be very helpful in that way.
              I am far from a specialist when it comes to the Mandaeans, so I am
              only quoting the story as I have heard it. According to Lady Drower,
              one of the early researchers of these people, she initially
              categorized Mandaeans as "Gnostics" because a friend of hers (I
              believe it was Quispel, if I remember correctly) convinced her they
              must be connected. She states that at the time she didn't know much
              about "Gnosticism" (though she knew very much about Mandaeans and
              Quispel did not), and in her later books she recants her initial
              categorization because as she learned more about Gnosticism she felt
              they were actually quite different. In other words, the person who
              categorized them this way in the first place is the one later points
              out that the categorization was overly hasty.

              By that time, though, I guess the damage was done, so to speak.
              Depending on her early observations many other authors who are either
              specialists in Gnosticism but not Mandaeans, or in Mandaeans but not
              Gnosticism have recounted the similarities and lumped them together.
              For instance, Rudolph does so in "Gnosis". I even have a book by
              Lupieri called "Mandaeans; the last Gnostics". The problem is that
              Rudolph simply takes it for granted that they must be Gnostics, and
              doesn't really explain why that would be so. Lupieri, on the other
              hand, does try to explain the connection but he is not as well
              informed about Gnosticism so some of the things he seems to set up as
              points of similarity don't actually work very well.

              Although it came out that way in my previous post, I don't actually
              intend to say that the Mandaeans COULDN'T be in some way categorized
              as Gnosticism (the way I tend to with Manichaeans). It could be a good
              conversation to explore right here on the forum. If you have some
              specific similarities in mind we can certainly test them and see what
              everyone thinks about it.

              It seems to me that one of the most common things I hear people
              mention as important in connecting the two movements is the
              name "Mandaean" itself. The problem with this is that it is not what
              they traditionally called themselves. I am skeptical about the role of
              esoteric knowing in the soteriology of the Mandaeans, and this is the
              sort of thing I think we need to be sensetive about when we deal with
              the issue. What I have read about the Mandaeans has implied to me that
              their salvational beliefs actually place the emphasis on ritual
              practice rather than on some kind of "Gnosis". Perhaps you can help
              clarify this issue for us in the course of conversation.

              PMCV
            • Nicholas Doolilttle
              ... messiah?
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
                messiah?<<<

                I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's   Vision and the Voice.
                 
                Vision and voice p134
                 
                --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
                Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
                the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
                worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
                Belial is worshiped by men under the name
                of Buddha.
                 
                 
                I Imagine
                 
                that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
                are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
                who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
                us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
                the Truth.
                 
                or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
                I couldnt explain how I Know that.
                I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
                because you dared to even try to do what is right.
                Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
                one to bring the light to the world.
              • Mark
                dwain, I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which speaks to one is part
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                  dwain,

                  I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                  alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                  speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                  interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.

                  Mark

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mark wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Cari,
                  > >
                  > > The person directly experiences the
                  > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
                  > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
                  with
                  > > me.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                  crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                  the baptist was the true messiah?
                  >
                  > dwain
                  > --
                  > Dwain Alford
                  > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
                  >
                  > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                  > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                  >
                • Mark
                  ... a ... pastor ... into ... Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain I would ask him to leave and not come back and call
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:


                    > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
                    > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
                    > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
                    a
                    > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
                    > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
                    > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
                    > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
                    > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
                    pastor
                    > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
                    > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
                    into
                    > a Mandaean. ;-)
                    >

                    Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                    I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                    (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                    of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                    inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                    healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                    trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                    of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                    http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                    I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                    person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                    feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                    them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                    speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

                    I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

                    Mark
                  • Lisa
                    Hi everyone, I ve been a member here for a little while but not sure I ve ever posted. Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                      Hi everyone,
                      I've been a member here for a little while but not sure I've ever posted.
                      Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this conversation :)
                      If anyone (Mark ?) has an opinion about Interfaith Seminary schools (for
                      example: http://newseminary.org/ ) and ordination as an Interfaith Minister
                      I would love to read it.

                      Thanks!
                      Lisa

                      ________________________________________
                      From: Mark
                      Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:33 PM
                      To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Classifications among the Valentinians
                      Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                      I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                      (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                      of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                      inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                      healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                      trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                      of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                      http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                      I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                      person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                      feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                      them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                      speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

                      I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

                      Mark
                      .
                    • dwain
                      ... not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible by barnstone and meyer. dwain -- Dwain Alford web: http://www.studiokdd.com The
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                        Nicholas Doolilttle wrote:
                        > >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
                        > messiah?<<<
                        >
                        > I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's Vision and the Voice.
                        >
                        > Vision and voice p134
                        >
                        > --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
                        > Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
                        > the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
                        > worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
                        > Belial is worshiped by men under the name
                        > of Buddha.
                        >
                        >
                        > I Imagine
                        >
                        > that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
                        > are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
                        > who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
                        > us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
                        > the Truth.
                        >
                        > or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
                        > I couldnt explain how I Know that.
                        > I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
                        > because you dared to even try to do what is right.
                        > Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
                        > one to bring the light to the world.
                        >
                        not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible
                        by barnstone and meyer.

                        dwain

                        --
                        Dwain Alford
                        web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                        "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                        for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                      • dwain
                        ... it s not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good in that
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                          Mark wrote:
                          >
                          > dwain,
                          >
                          > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                          > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                          > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                          > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                          >
                          > Mark
                          >
                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mark wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Cari,
                          > > >
                          > > > The person directly experiences the
                          > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
                          > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
                          > with
                          > > > me.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                          > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                          > the baptist was the true messiah?
                          > >
                          > > dwain
                          > > --
                          > > Dwain Alford
                          > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                          > >
                          > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                          > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you
                          call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good
                          in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in a
                          christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what one was
                          raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds with "catholic"
                          (read universal) orthodoxy.

                          dwain

                          --
                          Dwain Alford
                          web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                          "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                          for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                        • lady_caritas
                          ... wanted ... . Mark, thank you for the article. It was very informative. I can see
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas no_reply@ wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
                            > > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
                            > > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
                            > a
                            > > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
                            > > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
                            > > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
                            > > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
                            > > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
                            > pastor
                            > > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
                            > > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
                            > into
                            > > a Mandaean. ;-)
                            > >
                            >
                            > Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                            > I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                            > (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                            > of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                            > inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                            > healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                            > trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                            > of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                            > http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                            Mark, thank you for the article.  It was very informative.  I can see that when approached with training and sensitivity, a hospital staff chaplain's work can be quite challenging as well as satisfying.

                            I'll repost your link without the added ending period, so that members can access the article more easily:

                            http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html

                             

                            > I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                            > person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                            > feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                            > them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                            > speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.
                            >
                            > I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!
                            >
                            > Mark
                            >

                            You're welcome, Mark.  I'll be interested to hear whatever you care to share about Valentinians and Sethians that speaks to you, whenever you have some time.

                            Cari 

                          • Mark
                            dwain, I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective, the more it may
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                              dwain,

                              I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                              perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                              the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                              part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                              persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                              am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                              (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."


                              BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                              relationship between form and content.

                              Mark

                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Mark wrote:
                              > >
                              > > dwain,
                              > >
                              > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                              > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                              > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                              > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                              > >
                              > > Mark
                              > >
                              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                              wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Mark wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Cari,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The person directly experiences the
                              > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                              personal
                              > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                              better
                              > > with
                              > > > > me.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                              > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                              > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                              > > >
                              > > > dwain
                              > > > --
                              > > > Dwain Alford
                              > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                              > > >
                              > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                              > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                              as you
                              > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                              good
                              > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                              a
                              > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                              one was
                              > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                              with "catholic"
                              > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                              >
                              > dwain
                              >
                              > --
                              > Dwain Alford
                              > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
                              >
                              > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                              > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                              >
                            • dwain
                              ... thanks. i rather like it too. a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood, holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                                Mark wrote:
                                >
                                > dwain,
                                >
                                > I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                                > perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                                > the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                                > part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                                > persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                                > am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                                > (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."
                                >
                                > BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                                > relationship between form and content.
                                >
                                > Mark
                                >
                                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Mark wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > dwain,
                                > > >
                                > > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                                > > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                                > > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                                > > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                                > > >
                                > > > Mark
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                                > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Mark wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Cari,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > The person directly experiences the
                                > > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                                > personal
                                > > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                                > better
                                > > > with
                                > > > > > me.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                                > > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                                > > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > dwain
                                > > > > --
                                > > > > Dwain Alford
                                > > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                                > <http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>>
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                > > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                                > as you
                                > > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                                > good
                                > > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                                > a
                                > > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                                > one was
                                > > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                                > with "catholic"
                                > > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                                > >
                                > > dwain
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Dwain Alford
                                > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                                > >
                                > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                thanks. i rather like it too.

                                a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood,
                                holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and their contributions.

                                dwain

                                --
                                Dwain Alford
                                web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                                "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
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