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Re: Classifications among the Valentinians

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  • Mark
    Cari, Thanks for this link. I will have to spend some time with it. I did notice one thing that provided a fuller context for what is found in some
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 27, 2007
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      Cari,

      Thanks for this link. I will have to spend some time with it. I did
      notice one thing that provided a fuller context for what is found in
      some teachings, such as the Golden Dawn and especially Thelema, about
      what is often called one's "Higher Guardian Angel" or HGA. This is
      where the article states, "In order to become identified with the
      spiritual element, the person must attain a state of mystical
      knowledge (gnosis) of God. The person directly experiences the
      presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
      angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better with
      me.

      As for the context of "spiritual care," I work as a healthcare
      chaplain and in this profession in our literature we often wrestle
      with what adjective to use to describe our work: spiritual and/or
      pastoral. In short, I personally prefer "spiritual," since the care
      I provide is based primarily on my response to the other person's
      expressed spirituality as opposed to flowing from own authority as an
      ordained pastor within a faith community. The problem, however, is
      that everybody uses "spiritual" and "spirituality," but no body
      really knows what it is. So as I read various things related to my
      own spiritual path, I always look for insights that may help develop
      a better tool for providing spiritual assessments within a clinical
      setting, which normally should begin with a good definition of
      terms. Most people who write on this topic pass over this problem of
      defintion and go straight to discussing assessment tools. I am tired
      of that.

      Maybe that was more than you were asking regarding context.

      Mark

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
      > >
      > > According to Marvin Meyer (The Gnostic Discoveries, p. 117), the
      > > Valentinians divide humankind into three groups: "the people of
      the
      > > spirit" (pneumatikoi), "the people with a soul" (psychikoi),
      > and "the
      > > people of the flesh" (sarkikoi). Does this mean that for one to
      > move
      > > from sarkikoi (unbelievers) to psychikoi (ordinary Christians)
      and
      > then
      > > to pneumatikoi (spiritual Christians) that one successively ADDS
      to
      > the
      > > flesh first soul and then spirit, or does one progressively
      AWAKEN
      > > first soul and then spirit, or is it somethig else? Behind this
      > > question is an attempt to understand their anthropology: is a
      > person
      > > flesh+soul+spirit? Also, in what ways does spirit differ from
      > soul?
      >
      >
      > Hello, Mark. For starters, regarding Valentinians specifically,
      the
      > following article might help answer some of your questions:
      >
      > http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Psychology_Salvation.htm
      >
      >
      > > Behind this question is another: what is "spiritual" care as
      > opposed,
      > > for example, to "pastoral" care?
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Mark
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > Pastoral care in a religious sense might mean care or counsel given
      > by a pastor or religious leader to members of their group,... a
      > church congregation, for instance. I'm not sure of the context you
      > are using for "spiritual" care, however, Mark.
      >
      > Cari
      >
    • dwain
      ... how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 27, 2007
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        Mark wrote:
        >
        > Cari,
        >
        > The person directly experiences the
        > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
        > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better with
        > me.
        >






        how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true messiah?

        dwain
        --
        Dwain Alford
        web: http://www.studiokdd.com

        "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
        for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Dwain ... crucifixion was a sham
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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          Hey Dwain

          >>>how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
          crucifixion was a sham<<<<

          In what way? There is the idea in some texts that it was not the
          Christ that died. In Gnostic texts this is sometimes connected to
          something called "docetism", but there are other ideas that fit your
          bill.

          >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
          messiah?<<<

          I think you may be mixing a few things. Just because something may
          sometimes be called "Heretic" or is unusual by modern Christian
          thinking does not mean it is specifically "Gnostic". You may be
          talking about the Mandaeans. There was a time when this group was
          called "Gnostic", but more sensitive evaluation shows they may not be.

          PMCV
        • dwain
          ... exactly who i was speaking of. who did the more sensitive evaluation and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can share? dwain
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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            pmcvflag wrote:
            >
            > >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
            > messiah?<<<
            >
            > I think you may be mixing a few things. Just because something may
            > sometimes be called "Heretic" or is unusual by modern Christian
            > thinking does not mean it is specifically "Gnostic". You may be
            > talking about the Mandaeans. There was a time when this group was
            > called "Gnostic", but more sensitive evaluation shows they may not be.
            >


            >
            > PMCV
            >
            >

            exactly who i was speaking of. who did the more sensitive evaluation
            and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can
            share?

            dwain

            --
            Dwain Alford
            web: http://www.studiokdd.com

            "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
            for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
          • lady_caritas
            ... Ah, and here is more about angels: http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Joined_Angel.htm
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
              >
              > Cari,
              >
              > Thanks for this link. I will have to spend some time with it. I did
              > notice one thing that provided a fuller context for what is found in
              > some teachings, such as the Golden Dawn and especially Thelema, about
              > what is often called one's "Higher Guardian Angel" or HGA. This is
              > where the article states, "In order to become identified with the
              > spiritual element, the person must attain a state of mystical
              > knowledge (gnosis) of God. The person directly experiences the
              > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
              > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better with
              > me.
              >

              Ah, and here is more about angels:

              http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/Joined_Angel.htm

               

               

              > As for the context of "spiritual care," I work as a healthcare
              > chaplain and in this profession in our literature we often wrestle
              > with what adjective to use to describe our work: spiritual and/or
              > pastoral. In short, I personally prefer "spiritual," since the care
              > I provide is based primarily on my response to the other person's
              > expressed spirituality as opposed to flowing from own authority as an
              > ordained pastor within a faith community. The problem, however, is
              > that everybody uses "spiritual" and "spirituality," but no body
              > really knows what it is. So as I read various things related to my
              > own spiritual path, I always look for insights that may help develop
              > a better tool for providing spiritual assessments within a clinical
              > setting, which normally should begin with a good definition of
              > terms. Most people who write on this topic pass over this problem of
              > defintion and go straight to discussing assessment tools. I am tired
              > of that.
              >
              > Maybe that was more than you were asking regarding context.
              >
              > Mark
              >
              >

               

              Mark, not at all.  Thank you for sharing this.  Defining "spiritual" or "spirituality" does seem like a daunting task when considering all the individual, not only sectarian, ideas on this subject.  After all, someone's definition for "spiritual" might be another's definition for "psychic."  :-)  I do applaud you, though, Mark, for considering the individual's expression on the subject.

               

              I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual" care from pastors, etc.  This past year I was in a surgical lounge of a metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.  I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted to pray with him.  He was offering a Christian prayer.  I'm sure many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the pastor initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up.  One might even run into a Mandaean.  ;-) 

               

              At least general definitions of terms to suit broad categories of religions might be a starting point or backdrop before assessing more individual expression if the one administering care deals with people from a variety of spiritual backgrounds. 

               

              Cari

               

               

            • pmcvflag
              Hey Dwain You ask... ... and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can share?
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                Hey Dwain

                You ask...

                >>>exactly who i was speaking of. who did the more sensitive evaluation
                and when did it occur? are there any links to this information you can
                share?<<<

                Hmmm, now that you mention it I don't really even know of many
                websites on the subject. I guess I can't be very helpful in that way.
                I am far from a specialist when it comes to the Mandaeans, so I am
                only quoting the story as I have heard it. According to Lady Drower,
                one of the early researchers of these people, she initially
                categorized Mandaeans as "Gnostics" because a friend of hers (I
                believe it was Quispel, if I remember correctly) convinced her they
                must be connected. She states that at the time she didn't know much
                about "Gnosticism" (though she knew very much about Mandaeans and
                Quispel did not), and in her later books she recants her initial
                categorization because as she learned more about Gnosticism she felt
                they were actually quite different. In other words, the person who
                categorized them this way in the first place is the one later points
                out that the categorization was overly hasty.

                By that time, though, I guess the damage was done, so to speak.
                Depending on her early observations many other authors who are either
                specialists in Gnosticism but not Mandaeans, or in Mandaeans but not
                Gnosticism have recounted the similarities and lumped them together.
                For instance, Rudolph does so in "Gnosis". I even have a book by
                Lupieri called "Mandaeans; the last Gnostics". The problem is that
                Rudolph simply takes it for granted that they must be Gnostics, and
                doesn't really explain why that would be so. Lupieri, on the other
                hand, does try to explain the connection but he is not as well
                informed about Gnosticism so some of the things he seems to set up as
                points of similarity don't actually work very well.

                Although it came out that way in my previous post, I don't actually
                intend to say that the Mandaeans COULDN'T be in some way categorized
                as Gnosticism (the way I tend to with Manichaeans). It could be a good
                conversation to explore right here on the forum. If you have some
                specific similarities in mind we can certainly test them and see what
                everyone thinks about it.

                It seems to me that one of the most common things I hear people
                mention as important in connecting the two movements is the
                name "Mandaean" itself. The problem with this is that it is not what
                they traditionally called themselves. I am skeptical about the role of
                esoteric knowing in the soteriology of the Mandaeans, and this is the
                sort of thing I think we need to be sensetive about when we deal with
                the issue. What I have read about the Mandaeans has implied to me that
                their salvational beliefs actually place the emphasis on ritual
                practice rather than on some kind of "Gnosis". Perhaps you can help
                clarify this issue for us in the course of conversation.

                PMCV
              • Nicholas Doolilttle
                ... messiah?
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                  >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
                  messiah?<<<

                  I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's   Vision and the Voice.
                   
                  Vision and voice p134
                   
                  --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
                  Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
                  the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
                  worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
                  Belial is worshiped by men under the name
                  of Buddha.
                   
                   
                  I Imagine
                   
                  that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
                  are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
                  who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
                  us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
                  the Truth.
                   
                  or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
                  I couldnt explain how I Know that.
                  I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
                  because you dared to even try to do what is right.
                  Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
                  one to bring the light to the world.
                • Mark
                  dwain, I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which speaks to one is part
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                    dwain,

                    I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                    alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                    speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                    interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.

                    Mark

                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mark wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Cari,
                    > >
                    > > The person directly experiences the
                    > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
                    > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
                    with
                    > > me.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                    crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                    the baptist was the true messiah?
                    >
                    > dwain
                    > --
                    > Dwain Alford
                    > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
                    >
                    > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                    > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                    >
                  • Mark
                    ... a ... pastor ... into ... Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain I would ask him to leave and not come back and call
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:


                      > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
                      > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
                      > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
                      a
                      > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
                      > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
                      > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
                      > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
                      > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
                      pastor
                      > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
                      > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
                      into
                      > a Mandaean. ;-)
                      >

                      Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                      I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                      (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                      of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                      inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                      healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                      trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                      of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                      http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                      I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                      person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                      feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                      them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                      speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

                      I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

                      Mark
                    • Lisa
                      Hi everyone, I ve been a member here for a little while but not sure I ve ever posted. Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                        Hi everyone,
                        I've been a member here for a little while but not sure I've ever posted.
                        Sorry if this is way off topic but it seems to apply to this conversation :)
                        If anyone (Mark ?) has an opinion about Interfaith Seminary schools (for
                        example: http://newseminary.org/ ) and ordination as an Interfaith Minister
                        I would love to read it.

                        Thanks!
                        Lisa

                        ________________________________________
                        From: Mark
                        Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:33 PM
                        To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Classifications among the Valentinians
                        Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                        I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                        (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                        of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                        inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                        healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                        trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                        of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                        http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                        I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                        person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                        feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                        them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                        speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.

                        I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!

                        Mark
                        .
                      • dwain
                        ... not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible by barnstone and meyer. dwain -- Dwain Alford web: http://www.studiokdd.com The
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                          Nicholas Doolilttle wrote:
                          > >>>and also that jesus was satan and that john the baptist was the true
                          > messiah?<<<
                          >
                          > I think you are refering to Aleister Crowley's Vision and the Voice.
                          >
                          > Vision and voice p134
                          >
                          > --and Satan is worshipped by men under the name of
                          > Jesus, and Lucifer is worshiped by men under
                          > the name of Brahma, and Leviathan is
                          > worshiped by men under the name Allah, and
                          > Belial is worshiped by men under the name
                          > of Buddha.
                          >
                          >
                          > I Imagine
                          >
                          > that Lucifer(light bearer), and Satan(accusor/deciever)
                          > are really two different people. It is Lucifer the light bearer
                          > who brings the light to us, the Truth. and Satan has decieved
                          > us into believing that he is the evil one. and so keeping us from
                          > the Truth.
                          >
                          > or at least thats the way it looks to me, from where I Stand.
                          > I couldnt explain how I Know that.
                          > I just know what its like to have the whole world despise you
                          > because you dared to even try to do what is right.
                          > Satan is the jealous one who wishes that HE could be the
                          > one to bring the light to the world.
                          >
                          not really, the manicheans think along this line. see the gnostic bible
                          by barnstone and meyer.

                          dwain

                          --
                          Dwain Alford
                          web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                          "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                          for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                        • dwain
                          ... it s not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good in that
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 28, 2007
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                            Mark wrote:
                            >
                            > dwain,
                            >
                            > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                            > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                            > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                            > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                            >
                            > Mark
                            >
                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Mark wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Cari,
                            > > >
                            > > > The person directly experiences the
                            > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her personal
                            > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates better
                            > with
                            > > > me.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                            > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                            > the baptist was the true messiah?
                            > >
                            > > dwain
                            > > --
                            > > Dwain Alford
                            > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                            > >
                            > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                            > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates, as you
                            call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are good
                            in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in a
                            christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what one was
                            raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds with "catholic"
                            (read universal) orthodoxy.

                            dwain

                            --
                            Dwain Alford
                            web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                            "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                            for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                          • lady_caritas
                            ... wanted ... . Mark, thank you for the article. It was very informative. I can see
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas no_reply@ wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > I was under the impression that most hospitals ask if one has a
                              > > religious preference in order to better facilitate "spiritual"
                              > > care from pastors, etc. This past year I was in a surgical lounge of
                              > a
                              > > metropolitan hospital with a relative who was awaiting surgery.
                              > > I've never experienced this before, but a pastor moved around the
                              > > room talking with individual groups of people, asking if people wanted
                              > > to pray with him. He was offering a Christian prayer. I'm sure
                              > > many of the Christians would find this appropriate; however, the
                              > pastor
                              > > initially wouldn't have known whether they were Jews, Muslims,
                              > > Buddhists, atheists, etc. unless they spoke up. One might even run
                              > into
                              > > a Mandaean. ;-)
                              > >
                              >
                              > Concerning this pastor and his actions: as the hospital staff chaplain
                              > I would ask him to leave and not come back and call security if needed
                              > (as I have done before if I find a pastor visiting people who are not
                              > of their faith tradition and invited). This kind of "pastoral care" is
                              > inappropriate in a multi-cultural, multi-faith setting such as most
                              > healthcare institutions today. Board certified chaplains today are
                              > trained to work with a variety of faiths or no faith in the provision
                              > of spiritual care. You may read an article I wrote on this topic at
                              > http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html.

                              Mark, thank you for the article.  It was very informative.  I can see that when approached with training and sensitivity, a hospital staff chaplain's work can be quite challenging as well as satisfying.

                              I'll repost your link without the added ending period, so that members can access the article more easily:

                              http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/articles/larocca-pitts.html

                               

                              > I generally find my work more satisfying the less traditional a
                              > person's spiritual path is. I am a seeker who has found a path that
                              > feeds my soul and enjoy traveling with others on other paths that feed
                              > them. Within Valentinus and Sethian traditions I have found much that
                              > speaks to me and that is currently informing my path.
                              >
                              > I will check out your link on angels. Thanks!
                              >
                              > Mark
                              >

                              You're welcome, Mark.  I'll be interested to hear whatever you care to share about Valentinians and Sethians that speaks to you, whenever you have some time.

                              Cari 

                            • Mark
                              dwain, I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective, the more it may
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
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                                dwain,

                                I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                                perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                                the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                                part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                                persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                                am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                                (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."


                                BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                                relationship between form and content.

                                Mark

                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Mark wrote:
                                > >
                                > > dwain,
                                > >
                                > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                                > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                                > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                                > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                                > >
                                > > Mark
                                > >
                                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                                wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Mark wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Cari,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The person directly experiences the
                                > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                                personal
                                > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                                better
                                > > with
                                > > > > me.
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                                > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                                > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                                > > >
                                > > > dwain
                                > > > --
                                > > > Dwain Alford
                                > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                                > > >
                                > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                                as you
                                > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                                good
                                > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                                a
                                > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                                one was
                                > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                                with "catholic"
                                > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                                >
                                > dwain
                                >
                                > --
                                > Dwain Alford
                                > web: http://www.studiokdd.com
                                >
                                > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                                >
                              • dwain
                                ... thanks. i rather like it too. a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood, holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 29, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Mark wrote:
                                  >
                                  > dwain,
                                  >
                                  > I would agree it is valuable to see something from a multitude of
                                  > perspectives--and often the more radically opposite the perspective,
                                  > the more it may help bring that "something" into focus. Due in large
                                  > part to the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others, the orthodox
                                  > persepctive is now one among many and we are the richer for that. I
                                  > am fond of a quote from Jeffrey Butz's book, _The Brother of Jesus_
                                  > (p. 162), "Orthodoxy is merely the most successful heresy."
                                  >
                                  > BTW, I like your Kandinsky quote and the way it speaks to the
                                  > relationship between form and content.
                                  >
                                  > Mark
                                  >
                                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Mark wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > dwain,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I deal with this alternate interpretation as I deal with all the
                                  > > > alternates: I pick the one that speaks to me. Hearing that which
                                  > > > speaks to one is part of one's gnosis. If this alternate
                                  > > > interpretation speaks to you, I affirm your gnosis.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Mark
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > <mailto:gnosticism2%40yahoogroups.com>, dwain <dwain.alford@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Mark wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Cari,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The person directly experiences the
                                  > > > > > presence of the risen Christ in the form of his or her
                                  > personal
                                  > > > > > angel." This interpretation of this experience resonates
                                  > better
                                  > > > with
                                  > > > > > me.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > how do you deal with the alternate gnostic approach that the
                                  > > > crucifixion was a sham and also that jesus was satan and that john
                                  > > > the baptist was the true messiah?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > dwain
                                  > > > > --
                                  > > > > Dwain Alford
                                  > > > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                                  > <http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                  > > > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > it's not that i think it is correct, it is one of the alternates,
                                  > as you
                                  > > call it, that adds perspective to any understanding. questions are
                                  > good
                                  > > in that they allow for growth. i assume that if one was raised in
                                  > a
                                  > > christian atmosphere, this thinking would seem at odds with what
                                  > one was
                                  > > raised to "believe". in fact, gnosticism is at odds
                                  > with "catholic"
                                  > > (read universal) orthodoxy.
                                  > >
                                  > > dwain
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > Dwain Alford
                                  > > web: http://www.studiokdd.com <http://www.studiokdd.com>
                                  > >
                                  > > "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                  > > for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  thanks. i rather like it too.

                                  a little off topic, but have you or any of the group read holy blood,
                                  holy grail? the authors talk of the gnostics and their contributions.

                                  dwain

                                  --
                                  Dwain Alford
                                  web: http://www.studiokdd.com

                                  "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
                                  for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Kandinsky
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