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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Rex Mundi film,

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  • Michael Leavitt
    ... I didn t take that statement personally, but you have a point. 0)0) (rolls eyes) (I just made that up). :-)
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 9, 2007
      pmcvflag wrote:
      > Hey Mike
      >
      >
      >>> Well for once I agree completely with Robert Eisenman.<<<
      >>>
      >
      > Although I agree with Eisenman for being critical of the discoveries,
      > I was taken aback by this statement from him...
      >
      > "And what of this "Mary"'s other descendant all Gnostic Gospel
      > enthusiasts and those wishing for the eternal feminine (to say nothing
      > of "the bloodline of the Holy Grail" ) fantasize over, "Sarah"?"
      >
      > Good lord! Now Nag Hammadi studies have no validity and anyone with an
      > insterest in Gnosticism must be followers of Dan Brown's uncritical
      > historical theories. Is there an emoticon for the rolling of ones eyes?
      >
      > PMCV
      >
      I didn't take that statement personally, but you have a point. 0)0)
      (rolls eyes) (I just made that up). :-)
    • tau_mar_thoma
      ... nothing ... with an ... eyes? ... Greetings, Mike and PMCV: AMEN! It s about time that people accept that, in fact, The Da Vinci Code is a book of
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 11, 2007
        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > pmcvflag wrote:
        > > Hey Mike
        > >
        > >
        > >>> Well for once I agree completely with Robert Eisenman.<<<
        > >>>
        > >
        > > Although I agree with Eisenman for being critical of the discoveries,
        > > I was taken aback by this statement from him...
        > >
        > > "And what of this "Mary"'s other descendant all Gnostic Gospel
        > > enthusiasts and those wishing for the eternal feminine (to say
        nothing
        > > of "the bloodline of the Holy Grail" ) fantasize over, "Sarah"?"
        > >
        > > Good lord! Now Nag Hammadi studies have no validity and anyone
        with an
        > > insterest in Gnosticism must be followers of Dan Brown's uncritical
        > > historical theories. Is there an emoticon for the rolling of ones
        eyes?
        > >
        > > PMCV
        > >
        > I didn't take that statement personally, but you have a point. 0)0)
        > (rolls eyes) (I just made that up). :-)
        >
        Greetings, Mike and PMCV:

        AMEN! It's about time that people accept that, in fact, "The Da Vinci
        Code" is a book of fictions, not inspired by the True God, but
        comprised of a clever concoction of facts but mostly theories put
        together to make money, promote movies, and to be the new hot topic of
        bloggers galore. Furthermore, a lot of his "facts and theories" are
        imperfectly understood and, consequently, render a very imperfect
        "gnostic" revelation. Besides, in the final analysis, you will never
        find Truth in any form of written literature, not even the NHL et al.
        but solely through experiential Gnosis. The written words have their
        place, to be sure, but they are at best vague adumbrations of how and
        what Truth might appear as.

        It is one thing to say "The Word" but this mystical concept must never
        be confused - not ever - with the written words of humans, be they
        spiritual or secular or nearly brain-dead. Unless, at heart, we too
        are become "bible-beating fundamentalists"? What divine Being ever
        wrote anything down, other than the demiurge when it "inscribed" the
        words of the Torah on two blocks of stone?

        Peace,

        +Tau Mar Thoma

        http://www.myspace.com/holy_ewer_gnostic_studies
        http://blog.myspace.com/holy_ewer_gnostic_studies
      • lady_caritas
        ... Vinci ... of ... never ... al. ... their ... and ... never ... Hello, + Tau Mar Thoma. We ve had many discussions about how the ancient Gnostics might
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 12, 2007
          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "tau_mar_thoma"
          <tau_mar_thoma@...> wrote:
          > >
          > Greetings, Mike and PMCV:
          >
          > AMEN! It's about time that people accept that, in fact, "The Da
          Vinci
          > Code" is a book of fictions, not inspired by the True God, but
          > comprised of a clever concoction of facts but mostly theories put
          > together to make money, promote movies, and to be the new hot topic
          of
          > bloggers galore. Furthermore, a lot of his "facts and theories" are
          > imperfectly understood and, consequently, render a very imperfect
          > "gnostic" revelation. Besides, in the final analysis, you will
          never
          > find Truth in any form of written literature, not even the NHL et
          al.
          > but solely through experiential Gnosis. The written words have
          their
          > place, to be sure, but they are at best vague adumbrations of how
          and
          > what Truth might appear as.
          >
          > It is one thing to say "The Word" but this mystical concept must
          never
          > be confused - not ever - with the written words of humans, be they
          > spiritual or secular or nearly brain-dead. Unless, at heart, we too
          > are become "bible-beating fundamentalists"? What divine Being ever
          > wrote anything down, other than the demiurge when it "inscribed" the
          > words of the Torah on two blocks of stone?
          >


          Hello, + Tau Mar Thoma. We've had many discussions about how the
          ancient Gnostics might have conceived "Gnosis." Of course, without
          their writings we could not learn what they thought or experienced,
          nor did they convey this information without a theoretical setting of
          some sort. We don't have absolute, firsthand knowledge of all their
          initiatory study and practices; however, their writings exhibit more
          than a passing familiarity with Platonist philosophy, for instance.

          You mention that written works have their place. If I may ask, what
          place is that? If Truth is found "only through experiential Gnosis,"
          what does the adjective "experiential" encompass? From your reading
          of the NHL you mention and other literature, what would the ancients
          take this to mean?

          Do you agree or disagree with the "Attributes of Gnosis" outlined in
          our group files section regarding the historical Gnostics?
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/files/

          Cari
        • Michael Leavitt
          ... Right on both points. _The Da Vinci Code_ is no better than _Holy Blood, Holy Grail._
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 12, 2007
            > Greetings, Mike and PMCV:
            >
            > AMEN! It's about time that people accept that, in fact, "The Da Vinci
            > Code" is a book of fictions, not inspired by the True God, but
            > comprised of a clever concoction of facts but mostly theories put
            > together to make money, promote movies, and to be the new hot topic of
            > bloggers galore. Furthermore, a lot of his "facts and theories" are
            > imperfectly understood and, consequently, render a very imperfect
            > "gnostic" revelation. Besides, in the final analysis, you will never
            > find Truth in any form of written literature, not even the NHL et al.
            > but solely through experiential Gnosis. The written words have their
            > place, to be sure, but they are at best vague adumbrations of how and
            > what Truth might appear as.
            >
            Right on both points. _The Da Vinci Code_ is no better than _Holy
            Blood, Holy Grail._
          • Michael Leavitt
            ... To me Cari, the books are the lead into the experiential thing, no more no less, sort of like a road map. Now I ll shut up and let the two of you talk.
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 12, 2007
              lady_caritas wrote:
              > You mention that written works have their place. If I may ask, what
              > place is that? If Truth is found "only through experiential Gnosis,"
              > what does the adjective "experiential" encompass? From your reading
              > of the NHL you mention and other literature, what would the ancients
              > take this to mean?
              >
              >
              >
              To me Cari, the books are the lead into the experiential thing, no more
              no less, sort of like a road map. Now I'll shut up and let the two of
              you talk.
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Tau Mar Thoma ... Vinci Code is a book of fictions, not inspired by the True God, but comprised of a clever concoction of facts
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 12, 2007
                Hey Tau Mar Thoma

                >>>AMEN! It's about time that people accept that, in fact, "The Da
                Vinci Code" is a book of fictions, not inspired by the True God, but
                comprised of a clever concoction of facts<<<

                I go even further than that, in that I question whether these
                supposed "facts" really are facts at all.

                Anyway, I will be interested to hear your take on Lady Cari's
                questions.

                PMCV
              • lady_caritas
                ... what ... Gnosis, ... reading ... ancients ... more ... of ... Hi, Mike. Certainly there is no need to shut up. Silence can be deafening at times. ;-)
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 26, 2007
                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > lady_caritas wrote:
                  > > You mention that written works have their place. If I may ask,
                  what
                  > > place is that? If Truth is found "only through experiential
                  Gnosis,"
                  > > what does the adjective "experiential" encompass? From your
                  reading
                  > > of the NHL you mention and other literature, what would the
                  ancients
                  > > take this to mean?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > To me Cari, the books are the lead into the experiential thing, no
                  more
                  > no less, sort of like a road map. Now I'll shut up and let the two
                  of
                  > you talk.
                  >


                  Hi, Mike. Certainly there is no need to "shut up." Silence can be
                  deafening at times. ;-)

                  So, if "books are the lead into the experiential thing," as you say,
                  could one also place other things like ritual as part of the
                  direction, part of the "road map"? Actually, does one even need
                  books or rituals in order to generate whatever this "experiential
                  thing" is you mention? Or are you referring to a
                  unique "experiential thing"? I guess what I'm thinking is that
                  specific guides might influence direction or quality or framework of
                  a certain "experiential thing." In fact, all these could be
                  considered part of the whole experiential process, even as various
                  facets could be readdressed during an ongoing progression?

                  And even though many different written words and everyday life
                  rituals could influence a mystical episode or a progression of
                  spiritual occurrences and inner exploration in someone's life, it
                  seems that there are specific paths that rely on particular
                  precedents, taken together as an interrelated whole, in order to
                  accomplish desired results within a distinctive context. Gaining
                  inner knowledge or spiritual clarity or whatever is sought after is
                  not always a free-for-all, taking various elements out of context,
                  when it comes to methodology.

                  A question might remain whether all the guides make any difference in
                  the uniqueness or authenticity of a mystical experience. And that is
                  outside the scope of our group. What seems apparent to me, however,
                  is that how one interprets the experience, how much emphasis one
                  places on a mystical episode in relation to other aspects of the
                  process, and how one proceeds in this existent life are factors that
                  can be observed, apart from judging as to efficacy. And the Gnostic
                  writings do give us some information on that score.

                  Anyway, I'll stop here for now to allow for others' coments.

                  Cari
                • Michael Leavitt
                  ... I agree, and ritual has its part. Being ordained a Deacon and then a Priest were numinous experiences, but geared to service, and initiation in support
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 26, 2007
                    lady_caritas wrote:
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >>
                    >> lady_caritas wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> You mention that written works have their place. If I may ask,
                    >>>
                    > what
                    >
                    >>> place is that? If Truth is found "only through experiential
                    >>>
                    > Gnosis,"
                    >
                    >>> what does the adjective "experiential" encompass? From your
                    >>>
                    > reading
                    >
                    >>> of the NHL you mention and other literature, what would the
                    >>>
                    > ancients
                    >
                    >>> take this to mean?
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> To me Cari, the books are the lead into the experiential thing, no
                    >>
                    > more
                    >
                    >> no less, sort of like a road map. Now I'll shut up and let the two
                    >>
                    > of
                    >
                    >> you talk.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi, Mike. Certainly there is no need to "shut up." Silence can be
                    > deafening at times. ;-)
                    >
                    > So, if "books are the lead into the experiential thing," as you say,
                    > could one also place other things like ritual as part of the
                    > direction, part of the "road map"? Actually, does one even need
                    > books or rituals in order to generate whatever this "experiential
                    > thing" is you mention? Or are you referring to a
                    > unique "experiential thing"? I guess what I'm thinking is that
                    > specific guides might influence direction or quality or framework of
                    > a certain "experiential thing." In fact, all these could be
                    > considered part of the whole experiential process, even as various
                    > facets could be readdressed during an ongoing progression?
                    >
                    > And even though many different written words and everyday life
                    > rituals could influence a mystical episode or a progression of
                    > spiritual occurrences and inner exploration in someone's life, it
                    > seems that there are specific paths that rely on particular
                    > precedents, taken together as an interrelated whole, in order to
                    > accomplish desired results within a distinctive context. Gaining
                    > inner knowledge or spiritual clarity or whatever is sought after is
                    > not always a free-for-all, taking various elements out of context,
                    > when it comes to methodology.
                    >
                    > A question might remain whether all the guides make any difference in
                    > the uniqueness or authenticity of a mystical experience. And that is
                    > outside the scope of our group. What seems apparent to me, however,
                    > is that how one interprets the experience, how much emphasis one
                    > places on a mystical episode in relation to other aspects of the
                    > process, and how one proceeds in this existent life are factors that
                    > can be observed, apart from judging as to efficacy. And the Gnostic
                    > writings do give us some information on that score.
                    >
                    > Anyway, I'll stop here for now to allow for others' coments.
                    >
                    > Cari
                    >
                    >
                    I agree, and ritual has its part. Being ordained a Deacon and then a
                    Priest were numinous experiences, but geared to service, and initiation
                    in support thereof. The mass can do this to you as can Golden Dawn
                    rituals, these are all I'm familiar with. All have had their effect.
                    Reading Zostranos, I was there with him for a while, and that was not
                    the only instance. When I read Gareth Knight on the paths, I worked
                    them. My psyche got thrown all over the place. So reading has its place.
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