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Re: Question from New Member

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  • imdarkchylde
    Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read it yet. whirled
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
      Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
      Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
      it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
      whirled and inner peas
      DarkChylde

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Lawrance"
      <nicholson2007wan@...> wrote:
      >
      > From Dorina S
      >
      > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s,
      then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help
      us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular
      humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no
      suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
      there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
      end suffering, either?
      >
      > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without,
      then where did our spirit being originate?
      > .......................................
      >
      > Hello Dorina
      >
      > I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
      Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of
      Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
      sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
      suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
      to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
      >
      > "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
      fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
      Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
      >
      > "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
      the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
      furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
      >
      >
      > Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual
      dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of "a
      divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this
      world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the
      divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.
      The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration
      to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal
      events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological
      represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a
      divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny
      in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only
      the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this
      world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to
      the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity
      must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive,
      oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from
      its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself,
      benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in
      brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected
      through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of
      Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the
      very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth.
      Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in
      disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess. As
      paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer
      but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was
      not possible then is possible now:
      >
      > " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show]
      disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your
      sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the
      immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you,
      while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat you, he will not
      abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust
      yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who
      are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and
      choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to
      suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release
      yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save
      yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent
      you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek
      when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is
      short." (Zostrianos)
      >
      > Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher,
      better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we
      could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our
      delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our
      spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
      >
      > " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
      kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
      If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede
      you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside
      you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you
      will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if
      you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are
      that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
      >
      > In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by
      discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be
      more proper to say that God is the only victim.
      >
      > "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
      >
      > The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall
      in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the
      cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and
      suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulness).If
      forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
      >
      > "Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in
      the eternal realm]." (Gospel of Philip)
      >
      > Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to
      the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the
      Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche
      itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the
      true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was 'fury'
      that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the
      Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the
      ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If
      you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..
      (......)" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different
      message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In
      contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel
      of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of
      prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's
      sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of
      salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The
      readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within
      themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and
      enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
      > Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for
      something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great
      revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some
      charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we
      are told a vital constituent is our seeking.'
      >
      > To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could
      have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound
      evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the
      quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter
      and the world of spirit:
      > "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to
      create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated
      them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against
      their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not
      realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them
      and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their
      modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n
      the Origin of the World)
      >
      > The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the
      spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world
      returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end
      otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
      >
      > "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they
      belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the
      despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he
      burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it
      down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is
      handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the
      archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and
      consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and
      acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."
      (The Apocryphon According to John )
      >
      > The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if
      only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look
      forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it."
      >
      > Nick
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Dorina S
      > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:21 AM
      > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello Everyone,
      >
      > I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism
      for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created
      the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is
      a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent
      God.
      >
      > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
      God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not
      help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of
      secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be
      no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
      there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
      end suffering, either?
      >
      > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or
      without, then where did our spirit being originate?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Dorina S
      >
    • bicyclesophie
      Hello Dorina, Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often times
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
        Hello Dorina,

        Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how
        best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often
        times heated debate on whether or not a person would choose a
        situation or circumstance. I mostly bow out of such debates because
        I don't think it is simple and I cannot possibly do more than
        speculate. Speculation is what I think gets mainstream churches into
        trouble when they try to answer questions that they shouldn't try to
        answer.

        I do wonder, though, about individuals who are learning impaired to a
        severe degree. They are so child-like, so dependant upon the
        kindness and compassion of others. Do we learn more from them? Are
        they teaching us how to nurture and stimulate the mind? Just a
        thought. More speculation. What do I know about it? I said I
        wouldn't speculate, my bad.

        Your son's compassionate caring of these people reveals his god-like
        traits. How wonderful to have awakened that in the self.

        Take care.
      • bicyclesophie
        Hello imdarkchylde, I enjoy reading your posts, you re very interesting and knowledgeable! Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007

          Hello imdarkchylde,

          I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and knowledgeable!  Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how they apply it in their lives. 

          You mentioned two things that we have in common.  That you are a Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder.  Though I rarley have siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them.  Some would say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable, and in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I began my study of Gnosticism.  I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a certian point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy.  I felt absolutely energized the next morning.  Like you, I haven't attempted this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural.  I don't want to force such things.

          As for Valentinian Gnosticism?  Fell in love with it right off.  It touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.

          I look forward to having great chats with you!  Blessings!

           


           

        • imdarkchylde
          Brightest Blessings! Thank you! I don t feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so I am
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
            Brightest Blessings!
            Thank you! I don't feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still
            learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so
            I am rarely bored. Unless the TV is on... :)
            That is really interesting about your seizures and visions; I too was
            only able to find real answers to mine when I got into gnostism. I
            too look forward to discussions!
            whirled and inner peas
            DarkChylde

            Gnothi Seauton
            **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**


            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "bicyclesophie" <imamuzd@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hello imdarkchylde,
            >
            > I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and
            knowledgeable!
            > Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
            they
            > apply it in their lives.
            >
            > You mentioned two things that we have in common. That you are a
            > Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder. Though I rarley
            have
            > siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them. Some
            would
            > say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable,
            and
            > in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I
            began my
            > study of Gnosticism. I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a
            certian
            > point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy. I felt
            > absolutely energized the next morning. Like you, I haven't
            attempted
            > this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural. I don't
            want
            > to force such things.
            >
            > As for Valentinian Gnosticism? Fell in love with it right off. It
            > touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.
            >
            > I look forward to having great chats with you! Blessings!
            >
          • Nick Lawrance
            From DarkChylde Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
              From DarkChylde
              Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
              Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
              it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
              whirled and inner peas
              ...........................................
               
              Hi DarkChylde
              The Gospel of Eve is only a fragment that has been found as far as I am aware, there not very much to it at all so you wont get much from reading it plus you find the usual church father's propaganda associated with it.
               
              Nick
               

            • pmcvflag
              Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state... ... God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
                Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state...

                >>>The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
                God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does
                not help us by putting an end to all this?<<<

                Perhaps you could give us a little insight as to exactly where you
                have come across the conflicting info. It could always be that the
                problem lies with the sources rather than confusion on your part.
                Allogenes and the Valentinian exposition (two historical Gnostic
                texts from the two main categories of Gnosticism) offer roughly
                similar cosmologies that look something like this;

                It starts with a sort of negation. This source is not connected to
                the world in any way, but is truly infininte. Not infinite like
                numbers, or the universe, but TRUE infinity. This source isn't
                a "God", or even exactly a being... it is beyond any label. At some
                point there is a sort of reflection of this infinity, and this
                shimmering infinity within the absolute infinity is the spiritual
                source. This secondary infinity is where all the spiritual beings
                (Aeons) emenate from. The Velentinian Exposition calls this source
                the "Second Father", or just "Father".

                What we then generally see happen in a Gnostic mythology is that
                eventually there is a final Aeon who creates or begets a sort
                of "God" who then creates the material world. This creator god is
                often describe in a negative way, and equated with the Biblical Old
                Testement God.

                From a philosophical perspective I think part of the function of
                this myth deals not only with the problem of the failings of the
                material world, but also is a device meant to help describe the
                problem of the concept of infinity vs the obvious fact of the finite
                in front of us. How can we concieve various forms of infinity, and
                if a god is absolute... how could it be smaller than the infinity
                that us humans can concieve? It must be bigger, or it could not be
                so absolute. The anthropomorphic gods that human minds CAN concieve
                could not possibly fit this bill, but then how can we find
                continuity between this infinity and the material universe? This is
                a question that still bothers philosophers and scientists to this
                day, though generally without the spiritual implications that
                Gnosticism raises.

                PMCV
              • pmcvflag
                Hey Nick You respond to Dorina... ... Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
                  Hey Nick You respond to Dorina...

                  >>>I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
                  Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God
                  of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
                  sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
                  suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
                  to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.

                  "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
                  fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
                  Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)

                  "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
                  the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
                  furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
                  <<<

                  I did want to point out that the Teachings of Silvanus is likely not
                  a "Gnostic" text. In the intro to the text that we find in
                  Robinson's Nag Hammadi Library, Peel and Zandee even go so far as to
                  suggest part of it may have been meant as an attack on Gnostic
                  thinking.

                  Also, I believe that this description in Epiphanius was very likely
                  talking about the world soul rather than "God" or the spiritual
                  source.

                  This isn't to necessarily disagree with your point, but simply to
                  point out that I am not sure we can use these passages to imply
                  anything about a Gnostic theology.

                  Yeah, I know, I am being too picky again *lol*. The reason I mention
                  it though is that if we don't have those two passages informing the
                  theology, it opens up a number of other possible interpretations for
                  the texts that are Gnostic. It makes the notion of pantheism a good
                  deal less explicit in general Gnostic thinking, as well as opening
                  the question of just how the spark could relate to the source in
                  Gnostic texts.

                  PMCV
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