Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Question from New Member

Expand Messages
  • Dorina S
    Hello Sophie, I just wanted to add one more thing I thought about. My son who is a Special Education Teacher, went from being a born-again Christian to an
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Sophie,
       
      I just wanted to add one more thing I thought about. My son who is a Special Education Teacher, went from being a born-again Christian to an Agnostic to an Atheist because of his training and experience in this field. I'm sure he would have all the same objections to Gnosticism that he had to Christianity.
       
      He says some people are born without the mental capacity to understand any of this, and could never take action on their own behalf to free themselves from a matrix or save themselves from a hell. He has worked with these types of children every day, for over 10 years, and before that he worked in an adult group home. Neither society nor institutions appear to have answers, so I wouldn't feel comfortable choosing either. Any religion, theory or philosophy that isn't extremely simple and workable for everyone alike, is just too hard for many to accept, and I can understand that.
       
      Thanks for the conversation, and I do appreciate your responce! :-)
       
      Dorina S
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:54 AM
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Question from New Member

      .

    • Nick Lawrance
      From Dorina S The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        From Dorina S
         
        The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not end suffering, either?
         
        If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without, then where did our spirit being originate?
        .......................................
         
        Hello Dorina
         
        I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
         
        "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts, fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius, Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
         
        "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one; furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)

        Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of “a divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.  The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive, oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself, benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth. Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess.  As paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was not possible then is possible now:
         
        " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show] disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you, while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat  you, he will not abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is short." (Zostrianos)
         
        Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher, better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
         
        " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
         
        In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be more proper to say that God is the only victim.
         
        "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
         
        The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulness).If forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
         
        “Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in the eternal realm].” (Gospel of Philip)
        Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was ‘fury’ that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..(......)" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
        Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we are told a vital constituent is our seeking.’
         
        To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter and the world of spirit:

        "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n the Origin of the World)

        The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
         
        "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved." (The Apocryphon According to John )
         
        The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it.”
         
        Nick

         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Dorina S
        Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:21 AM
        Subject: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member

        Hello Everyone,
         
        I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent God.
         
        The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not end suffering, either?
         
        If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without, then where did our spirit being originate?
         
        Thanks,
        Dorina S

      • D Celestia
        I mainly bring up the idea of a separate God because I read this, or what seems to be saying this, in Gnostic literature. As for myself, I do not believe in a
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I mainly bring up the idea of a separate God because I read this, or what seems to be saying this, in Gnostic literature. As for myself, I do not believe in a separate "God out There" but wondered why Gnostic writings include it, and even Jesus saying "The Father", etc. I'm sure it is metaphysical, but try explaining that to a secular humanist who wants none of it. They don't believe in metaphysics anymore than they do in spirituality.
           
          Thanks for all this info, though; it won't be lost on me!
           
          D
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:57 PM
          Subject: Re: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member

          Hello Dorina
           
          I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
           
          "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts, fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius, Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
           
          "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one; furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)

          Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of “a divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.  The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive, oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself, benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth. Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess.  As paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was not possible then is possible now:
           
          " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show] disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you, while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat  you, he will not abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is short." (Zostrianos)
           
          Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher, better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
           
          " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
           
          In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be more proper to say that God is the only victim.
           
          "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
           
          The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulne ss).If forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
           
          “Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in the eternal realm].” (Gospel of Philip)
          Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was ‘fury’ that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..(...... )" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
          Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we are told a vital constituent is our seeking.’
           
          To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter and the world of spirit:

          "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n the Origin of the World)

          The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
           
          "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved." (The Apocryphon According to John )
           
          The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it.”
           
          Nick
          .

        • imdarkchylde
          Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read it yet. whirled
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
            Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
            it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
            whirled and inner peas
            DarkChylde

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Lawrance"
            <nicholson2007wan@...> wrote:
            >
            > From Dorina S
            >
            > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s,
            then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help
            us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular
            humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no
            suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
            there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
            end suffering, either?
            >
            > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without,
            then where did our spirit being originate?
            > .......................................
            >
            > Hello Dorina
            >
            > I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
            Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of
            Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
            sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
            suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
            to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
            >
            > "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
            fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
            Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
            >
            > "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
            the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
            furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
            >
            >
            > Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual
            dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of "a
            divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this
            world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the
            divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.
            The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration
            to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal
            events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological
            represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a
            divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny
            in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only
            the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this
            world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to
            the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity
            must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive,
            oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from
            its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself,
            benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in
            brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected
            through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of
            Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the
            very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth.
            Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in
            disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess. As
            paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer
            but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was
            not possible then is possible now:
            >
            > " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show]
            disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your
            sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the
            immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you,
            while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat you, he will not
            abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust
            yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who
            are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and
            choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to
            suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release
            yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save
            yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent
            you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek
            when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is
            short." (Zostrianos)
            >
            > Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher,
            better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we
            could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our
            delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our
            spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
            >
            > " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
            kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
            If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede
            you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside
            you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you
            will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if
            you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are
            that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
            >
            > In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by
            discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be
            more proper to say that God is the only victim.
            >
            > "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
            >
            > The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall
            in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the
            cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and
            suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulness).If
            forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
            >
            > "Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in
            the eternal realm]." (Gospel of Philip)
            >
            > Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to
            the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the
            Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche
            itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the
            true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was 'fury'
            that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the
            Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the
            ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If
            you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..
            (......)" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different
            message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In
            contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel
            of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of
            prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's
            sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of
            salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The
            readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within
            themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and
            enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
            > Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for
            something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great
            revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some
            charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we
            are told a vital constituent is our seeking.'
            >
            > To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could
            have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound
            evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the
            quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter
            and the world of spirit:
            > "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to
            create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated
            them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against
            their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not
            realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them
            and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their
            modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n
            the Origin of the World)
            >
            > The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the
            spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world
            returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end
            otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
            >
            > "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they
            belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the
            despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he
            burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it
            down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is
            handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the
            archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and
            consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and
            acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."
            (The Apocryphon According to John )
            >
            > The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if
            only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look
            forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it."
            >
            > Nick
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Dorina S
            > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:21 AM
            > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello Everyone,
            >
            > I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism
            for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created
            the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is
            a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent
            God.
            >
            > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
            God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not
            help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of
            secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be
            no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
            there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
            end suffering, either?
            >
            > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or
            without, then where did our spirit being originate?
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Dorina S
            >
          • bicyclesophie
            Hello Dorina, Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often times
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Dorina,

              Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how
              best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often
              times heated debate on whether or not a person would choose a
              situation or circumstance. I mostly bow out of such debates because
              I don't think it is simple and I cannot possibly do more than
              speculate. Speculation is what I think gets mainstream churches into
              trouble when they try to answer questions that they shouldn't try to
              answer.

              I do wonder, though, about individuals who are learning impaired to a
              severe degree. They are so child-like, so dependant upon the
              kindness and compassion of others. Do we learn more from them? Are
              they teaching us how to nurture and stimulate the mind? Just a
              thought. More speculation. What do I know about it? I said I
              wouldn't speculate, my bad.

              Your son's compassionate caring of these people reveals his god-like
              traits. How wonderful to have awakened that in the self.

              Take care.
            • bicyclesophie
              Hello imdarkchylde, I enjoy reading your posts, you re very interesting and knowledgeable! Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
              • 0 Attachment

                Hello imdarkchylde,

                I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and knowledgeable!  Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how they apply it in their lives. 

                You mentioned two things that we have in common.  That you are a Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder.  Though I rarley have siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them.  Some would say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable, and in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I began my study of Gnosticism.  I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a certian point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy.  I felt absolutely energized the next morning.  Like you, I haven't attempted this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural.  I don't want to force such things.

                As for Valentinian Gnosticism?  Fell in love with it right off.  It touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.

                I look forward to having great chats with you!  Blessings!

                 


                 

              • imdarkchylde
                Brightest Blessings! Thank you! I don t feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so I am
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Brightest Blessings!
                  Thank you! I don't feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still
                  learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so
                  I am rarely bored. Unless the TV is on... :)
                  That is really interesting about your seizures and visions; I too was
                  only able to find real answers to mine when I got into gnostism. I
                  too look forward to discussions!
                  whirled and inner peas
                  DarkChylde

                  Gnothi Seauton
                  **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**


                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "bicyclesophie" <imamuzd@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello imdarkchylde,
                  >
                  > I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and
                  knowledgeable!
                  > Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
                  they
                  > apply it in their lives.
                  >
                  > You mentioned two things that we have in common. That you are a
                  > Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder. Though I rarley
                  have
                  > siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them. Some
                  would
                  > say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable,
                  and
                  > in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I
                  began my
                  > study of Gnosticism. I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a
                  certian
                  > point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy. I felt
                  > absolutely energized the next morning. Like you, I haven't
                  attempted
                  > this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural. I don't
                  want
                  > to force such things.
                  >
                  > As for Valentinian Gnosticism? Fell in love with it right off. It
                  > touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.
                  >
                  > I look forward to having great chats with you! Blessings!
                  >
                • Nick Lawrance
                  From DarkChylde Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    From DarkChylde
                    Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
                    Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
                    it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
                    whirled and inner peas
                    ...........................................
                     
                    Hi DarkChylde
                    The Gospel of Eve is only a fragment that has been found as far as I am aware, there not very much to it at all so you wont get much from reading it plus you find the usual church father's propaganda associated with it.
                     
                    Nick
                     

                  • pmcvflag
                    Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state... ... God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state...

                      >>>The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
                      God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does
                      not help us by putting an end to all this?<<<

                      Perhaps you could give us a little insight as to exactly where you
                      have come across the conflicting info. It could always be that the
                      problem lies with the sources rather than confusion on your part.
                      Allogenes and the Valentinian exposition (two historical Gnostic
                      texts from the two main categories of Gnosticism) offer roughly
                      similar cosmologies that look something like this;

                      It starts with a sort of negation. This source is not connected to
                      the world in any way, but is truly infininte. Not infinite like
                      numbers, or the universe, but TRUE infinity. This source isn't
                      a "God", or even exactly a being... it is beyond any label. At some
                      point there is a sort of reflection of this infinity, and this
                      shimmering infinity within the absolute infinity is the spiritual
                      source. This secondary infinity is where all the spiritual beings
                      (Aeons) emenate from. The Velentinian Exposition calls this source
                      the "Second Father", or just "Father".

                      What we then generally see happen in a Gnostic mythology is that
                      eventually there is a final Aeon who creates or begets a sort
                      of "God" who then creates the material world. This creator god is
                      often describe in a negative way, and equated with the Biblical Old
                      Testement God.

                      From a philosophical perspective I think part of the function of
                      this myth deals not only with the problem of the failings of the
                      material world, but also is a device meant to help describe the
                      problem of the concept of infinity vs the obvious fact of the finite
                      in front of us. How can we concieve various forms of infinity, and
                      if a god is absolute... how could it be smaller than the infinity
                      that us humans can concieve? It must be bigger, or it could not be
                      so absolute. The anthropomorphic gods that human minds CAN concieve
                      could not possibly fit this bill, but then how can we find
                      continuity between this infinity and the material universe? This is
                      a question that still bothers philosophers and scientists to this
                      day, though generally without the spiritual implications that
                      Gnosticism raises.

                      PMCV
                    • pmcvflag
                      Hey Nick You respond to Dorina... ... Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hey Nick You respond to Dorina...

                        >>>I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
                        Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God
                        of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
                        sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
                        suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
                        to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.

                        "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
                        fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
                        Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)

                        "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
                        the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
                        furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
                        <<<

                        I did want to point out that the Teachings of Silvanus is likely not
                        a "Gnostic" text. In the intro to the text that we find in
                        Robinson's Nag Hammadi Library, Peel and Zandee even go so far as to
                        suggest part of it may have been meant as an attack on Gnostic
                        thinking.

                        Also, I believe that this description in Epiphanius was very likely
                        talking about the world soul rather than "God" or the spiritual
                        source.

                        This isn't to necessarily disagree with your point, but simply to
                        point out that I am not sure we can use these passages to imply
                        anything about a Gnostic theology.

                        Yeah, I know, I am being too picky again *lol*. The reason I mention
                        it though is that if we don't have those two passages informing the
                        theology, it opens up a number of other possible interpretations for
                        the texts that are Gnostic. It makes the notion of pantheism a good
                        deal less explicit in general Gnostic thinking, as well as opening
                        the question of just how the spark could relate to the source in
                        Gnostic texts.

                        PMCV
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.