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Re: Question from New Member

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  • imdarkchylde
    Blessings, Dorina!! I like that your question has been followed with more questions. That is how it is with me also. The most answers I discover, the
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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      Blessings, Dorina!!
      I like that your question has been followed with more questions.
      That is how it is with me also. The most answers I discover, the
      questions I discover also! :)

      *****Greetings to you, also! Ok, so, is the exit of the Matrix a
      different "place", "dimension", or just what? I understand getting
      past the archons, but to where does one go when they accomplish that?
      Is it somewhere outside of this material universe? Can anything exist
      there?

      I have been able to 'exit' the matrix, or consciuoness trapped in the
      physical plane only, a few times, so I speak of what I KNOW, as I
      experienced it and am coming to grips with undestanding what I
      experienced. I induced an OBE-out of body experience- (I only did
      that the one time, and never have since, not even tried)and I have
      also have a seizure disorder that causes me to have NDE-near death
      experiences-and I have had a few of those. My conscious and aware
      mind 'went' somewhere else, and I was still me, just a little
      different. And you carry the exit within you right now, but it would
      take meditation and work to accomplish it. According to Kabbalah, it
      is the 99%, whereas we live in the 1% (physical, or 'klippotic'
      realm). We exist right now in time and space, and it is difficult to
      describe anything outside that realm, because we are trapped by our
      minds. How can anything exist and not have an atomic stucture? We
      are helped and hindered by our analysis.
      Can anything exist there, no. Not a thing into itself. Called the
      Great Unmaifest, this emans nothing has manifested itself yet, it
      exists with the potential of everything and the distinction of
      nothing, or better to say, 'no thing,' or no one thing, but
      everything, the ALL, the ONE. Am I making sense? :))

      *****How did we end up in physical matter? What is the story of
      the "fall of man" in your opinion?

      I actually lean towards the idea that we didn't fall from grace. as
      the Garden of Eden story is typically interpreted, but that we were
      awakened, and the only 'sin' was the trapping of the Epinoia, the
      power of the Sophia, the life force, in matter by the demiurge. But
      before we villianize the demiurge too much, let's remember that
      according to the APoch. of John, 'all was done in the will of the
      Father of the Entirety.' So unlike conventional religious and
      Christian thinking, I don't hold that man 'fell' at all, and the
      snake was our rescuer, our helper.
      As to how we end up in physical matter is probably simulataneous with
      the Big Bang Theory, but having the formation of the physical
      universe was the end result of a spiritual conflict which seeks to
      resolve itself here, within each of us. I like the Manicheean
      version best, as it leaves out any cosmic bad guys, demiurge, Satan
      or any others, and simply has the basic sturggle of Good vs Bad.
      (Evil was originally an archery term, meanig an arrow fell short of
      the mark.) Basically it said that Good, represented by Air, Wind, and
      so forth lived in complete peace, without conflict; wheras Evil
      represented by a Dragon, I think, and a Bird, and I can't remember
      what else without study (I loaned out my book with the Manicheean
      texts so I can't reference right now) desired the tranquility Good
      seemed to exist in and they were in constant conflict, Evil was, so
      Evil determined to attack the Good and live in the peace and light,
      rather than in their conflict and darkness. Good created a being, I
      believe it was called the Hylic Man, who in turn created 6 (?
      5?) 'sons' or beings and they in turn defended the Good, pursuing
      Evil into the 'lowest realms' which is where the universe came later
      to be formed. Evil, sensing that the Hylic Man was about to conquer,
      consumed him, and his 'sons', mixing the Good with the Evil, and all
      of it mixing with the base matter of the 'lowest realm,' the one of
      matter. The world was created to extract the Light from the asmixed
      matter, and process it to join the Good, and Evil is to be left
      behind in the material realm. The texts go into greater detail, and
      to properly paraphrase and not leave anything out I would need them
      back!lol But according to the last of the texts I read, that Good
      will be back within itself, and the realm of matter will be a 'rock'
      placed forever between the two, so that Evil cannot attack Good
      again. I hope you haven't drowned on me yet. :)

      How did he acquire these spirits that he trapped into physical
      matter? How could he just take us against our will and wishes? Or why
      would it be our will and wish to fall into matter?

      In the Apoch of John, as well as the Hypostasis of the Archons, (and
      in the Bible in a info-limited form) the 'blowing in the face' to
      give the 'power of the mother', wherein the 'experiement' of the
      demiurge was given life, or the life force was trapped in matter.
      Some versions say the Sophia, the mother refered to, sent a 'angel'
      to the demiurge to inform him to do this. There was a branch of
      Gnostics that were completely aesetic, with some Gospels who
      specifically state that we should abstain from sex as it brings about
      a birth, which is another spirit trapped in a body and transformed
      from spirit to soul. I have also read that those who are spending
      their time trapped in this realm did so of their own accord, giving
      rise to the idea every soul was a spirit that was drawn into this
      realm, and must satiate whatever desire there is to be released from
      the desire of it and to be free of this realm. I have read that the
      toll fro the soul must be paid, a sum of gold, ut the gold of your
      purified soul, not a physical mineral. Then you are free to go an
      exist in other realms and extract the precious metals from your soul,
      as it is retransformed into spirit. I have also read it was once
      known how to get past these gatekeepers, with secret words and seals,
      but I am sure such information was lost in time. Mnay things are
      written and said, I try to be open to all, but to also seek a common
      thread which runs thru all, which is the connection to the soure, I
      feel. But that is strictly my opinion!:)
      Now, according to the Hymn of the Pearl (my all time personal fave of
      anything and everything) we were children, in our father's house, and
      we chose to undertake the journey into Egypt, and to get the pearl
      from the dragon. I like that idea, and the philosphy behind it. But
      then again, I am a Valentian gnostic. :)
      As to the future we are working toward, I have some beliefs (tricky
      word for gnostics, as we are supposed to KNOW not BELIEVE) based on
      some research by a friend of mine, and I'd be glad to send you some
      of it, if I can dig it out. It is far to complex and scientific a
      matter to condense here, and I'm sure to start the other members of
      the forum snoring (if they aren't already :)) But suffice it to say
      there are atmospheric conditions which are completely different and
      changing, some due to global warming and some due to things which are
      bigger and more complex than global warming, and as we are being
      exposed to such chemical and alchemical changes we are also getting
      the pressure in our society turned up, and it seems the good are
      getting better but as the equation seeks to balance itself the bad
      are getting worse. Like our technolgy, for all we make that is
      benefical we make that with which is destructive. I'd like to think
      there is an equality, a balance to it, but one has to be strictly
      objective and not prone to sentimentality to see it, and I am hardly
      that way, nor is most people. I am not as polarized as I used to be,
      and I seek the balance in all things, and the only thing I think you
      should never be moderate about is moderation. (Big smile)
      I think this species would evolve when we truly set aside differnces
      and embrace a greater good. Many people have double standards that
      they are perfectly comfortable with, they are prejudiced and
      hypocritical and choose this way because of the petty selfish
      pleasures it brings. If we could learn to have compassion rather
      than judgement, and learn to do what is right even if it is not easy
      or profitable, we could not change the world one at a time, but it
      will take each person decideing to change the world for the better in
      a personal way, in our own lives. If we were to love, and I mean
      selfless, unconditional love, ourselves and the world around us, even
      the ugly warts, then we would change ourselves, and others might
      catch on, and then we could change the world. Just a dream. And
      yes, we have been sent many lightbringers, Mani, Yeshua, Buddha, the
      list goes on and on, and they all say to love, and forgive, and treat
      one another with respect. We can all be lightbringers, but we have
      to KNOW it, not believe second hand accounts or have some kind of
      blind obedience prised by religions following blind gods.

      *****This probably isn't what you would expect me to say, but I
      say "no, it would not". I feel right now my choices are limited, and
      are only going to get more so if the rulers of this world have their
      way with us. In the movie "The Time Machine", and I've only ever seen
      the older version, I believe we are the Eloi and Christ is the Time
      Traveler. They would have gone on for eternity in their sleep stupor
      had he not stepped in to rescue them overtly. They were dumbed-down,
      the way the archons are working on to do to us. What will
      microchipping, forced vaccinations, relocation camps, etc., do to our
      choices? They are trying to remove our lucidity, our sentience, so we
      cannot become enlightened and liberated.

      I mean to say that Evil can do whatever, it isn't constrained by
      desires for peace and unity as Good would be, so Good has rules (Do
      No Harm) and Evil does not. So if I was to give you a choice of
      which side to 'fight' for, the side which adheres to a code and the
      side which does not, which side would you be on? Logically the side
      with no rules and no code would free you up to get your way. If you
      fight for the side with a code or rules, then your options become
      limited by the code or rules. Uncorruptablility cannot make us do
      what is wanted, we must seek it out. Kabballistic idea, there is no
      coersion in things spiritual.
      As to the Time Machine, I have not seen it. Who acts and directs
      it? You have peaked my interest. I wanna see it now. But we are
      dumbed down, by religions and mindless social morays, I think more
      than anything else. As long as we are fighting over who is God and
      what 'he' (always in monotheistic religions, funny that) wants and
      who 'he' wants to do it, we can't get anywhere.
      I just have one scientific fact to leave you with. The Bushmen of
      the Kalahari have no crime, no assalts, even the children do not
      misbehave. But an interesting factor to note is they live in
      complete harmony with nature, seeking only what they need from her,
      and the have no laws,no rules, no penalities or lawgivers. Wouldn't
      it be nice if we could encorperate our advanced technology into such
      a beautifully simple existance? Is impossible? I thought I was
      taught that science says nothing is impossible. Could we loose the
      consumerism, the addictions, the violence? I don't know, but I am
      intending to find out. I have personally determined to be kinder
      than neccessary, as everyone I meet is fighting some kind of battle.
      That will be my contribution to a better world. Love thy neighbor.
      Do unto others AS you would have them do unto you (not BEFORE they do
      unto you). :)
      Your Higher Self saw fit for you to live out this existance. Squeeze
      everything from it you can learn, and the Light will lead and direct
      you if you learn to focus on it and not on ego. It is understandable
      to learn the truth, and to feel the alienation now in a world so
      familiar (I am a stranger in strange land) , but you are hear for a
      reson, and you can rest assured learning the truth was not to seek a
      way out, but to seek the pearl you obviously came to find. But you
      have eaten the food, and been decieved, and you have forgotten from
      where you came and why you are here. But you are seeking, so espect
      to be disturbed. (Gospel of Thomas). You will be amazed, if the
      disturbance doesnt cause you to go back to religious reaonings.

      How could one lone demiurge, even with an army of 'archons', be more
      powerful that 6 billion living souls on a planet?

      Again, there is the code thing. Good cannot do Evil, even in the
      Manicheean texts the Hylic Man was created by Good but not Good of
      itself. What would pass for allowable as protection gets prets
      sticky in this realm, I can imagine a spiritual one without the
      constraints of time or space (well, actually I can't imagine it, but
      the contemplation of it can lead to mystical awakenings within the
      self). But also there werent' any 'souls' yet, they were spirits that
      had never been admixed with matter - that makes a 'soul'. ANd the
      demiurge lived in ignorance of the ONE, as well as his connection to
      that, and so he could attack, because he saw an enemy, whereas those
      in the pleroma knew the demiurge was a part of them and them a part
      of him and you do not attack yourself. They were not ignorant of the
      ONE or the connection. He was, so he saw the others as not being a
      part of him, or him a part of them, so he was free to attack.
      I remember being a little disturbed myself (musta found the truth,
      eh?) when I discovered the 'rest' of the scripture where Yeshua tells
      his disciples he is sending them 'out as sheep among the wolves.'
      They were distraught to hear this and asked him how to help their
      fear. "A dead sheep has nothing more to rear from a wolf," was the
      answer.
      whirled and inner peas
      DarkChylde

      Gnothi Seauton
      **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**











      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Dorina S" <DorinasLib@...> wrote:
      >
      > Blessings and wingwhispers, Dorina!!
      >
      > I would say (as a gnostic and kabbalist) that there is no
      transendant 'God', (Good, maybe), because to say 'god' of any sort
      falls into the fallacy of other religions, always trying to seperate
      and alienate rather than base teachings on a connection of all of us
      to the ONE, which resides within us. Kabbalists call is 'the Light',
      and altho many Kabbalists speak of God, it isn't in the context of
      Gods such as YWHW, Allah, Odin, whatever. You might say the
      Gnostic's 'god' truly created the 'gods' most humans worship, albeit
      > inadvertantly. As gnostics we know that the shaper(s) of the
      material world and Saboath, god of the forces who reigns now over
      the 'Matrix', to be Archons, and not the end-all Source.
      >
      > *****Greetings to you, also! Ok, so, is the exit of the Matrix a
      different "place", "dimension", or just what? I understand getting
      past the archons, but to where does one go when they accomplish that?
      Is it somewhere outside of this material universe? Can anything exist
      there?
      >
      >
      > There is a transcendant Source, I refer to as the ONE, also known
      as Ain Sof, the Great Unmanifest, or the Ground of Being. This is
      were your spirit originated, your mind was formed as a result of
      the 'mixing' of the spiritual matter into the crude, physical matter,
      and it is your mind which both traps and frees you from this
      Matrix.This source, the ONE, doesn't require prayer, or blind
      obedience, or even faith- it requires the individual to realize the
      truth for themselves, and it would have a transforming effect on them
      and thier lives. Did me!
      >
      > *****How did we end up in physical matter? What is the story of
      the "fall of man" in your opinion? > *****How did we end up in
      physical matter? What is the story of the "fall of man" in your
      opinion?How did he acquire these spirits that he trapped into
      physical matter? How could he just take us against our will and
      wishes? Or why would it be our will and wish to fall into matter? I
      heard someone on the radio last night say "we chose" against "God's"
      advice to learn good from evil. What if a parent on earth advised a 5-
      year-old not to play on the freeway? Is that good enough for them to
      have the right to be parents? It is just too cryptic to say it's "The
      One" -- gives it no need for accountability and puts all the blame on
      humans who have no conscious memory of how or why we got here.
      >
      > You see, we don't need a god or savior to save us from the
      suffering of this world. Suffering will end when we humans end it,
      when we are united in this goal, and not before. And this will not
      come until we
      > as humans realize our ultimate part to play, our connection to the
      ONE which is love. That is what unites and connects us, and would
      evolve us to do what is needed to end suffering.
      >
      > *****If it's true what scientists and archeologists say, that the
      earth is now 3 billion years old, and that human life has been on
      this planet since its beginning, when will humans end this suffering
      on our own? When you say "would evolve us", what is keeping us from
      this? Why has it already taken 3 billion earth years, cycles of
      cataclysms and new beginnings, and things are getting worse instead
      of better? You might say "some people" are waking up and evolving,
      but surely that was true millions of years ago as well? There are
      more people on this planet now than ever before in known human
      history, all added together. Where would all these souls come from
      all of a sudden? Is the demiurge gaining in power and trapping more
      and more into this mess? There are way, way, way more sleeping people
      than awakened ones here, so I don't think it's a case of enlightened
      beings coming in to help us.
      >
      > "You suffer and die because you love what decieves you," Gospel of
      Mary.
      >
      > So you see, it is not a matter of aloofness or uncaring. The Good,
      the ONE, the great Unmainifest, cannot do evil, even for the sake of
      good. And that would severely limit your available choices, would it
      > not?
      >
      > *****This probably isn't what you would expect me to say, but I
      say "no, it would not". I feel right now my choices are limited, and
      are only going to get more so if the rulers of this world have their
      way with us. In the movie "The Time Machine", and I've only ever seen
      the older version, I believe we are the Eloi and Christ is the Time
      Traveler. They would have gone on for eternity in their sleep stupor
      had he not stepped in to rescue them overtly. They were dumbed-down,
      the way the archons are working on to do to us. What will
      microchipping, forced vaccinations, relocation camps, etc., do to our
      choices? They are trying to remove our lucidity, our sentience, so we
      cannot become enlightened and liberated.
      >
      >
      > I remember hearing the story of Cain and Abel when I was young,
      and really having a problem with the what I now know to be the
      demiurge for 'letting' Cain kill Abel. Now I know that what happens
      on this world is not the result of the Good, the ONE, but he result
      of a spiritual and cosmic mistake which caused the formation of the
      physical world in the first place. Study the creation 'story' of the
      > Manicheeians, IMHO it mirrors the gnostic 'stories' found in the
      gnostic texts. If the ONE, the Father of the Entirety to use an idea
      from the Apoc. of John, is uncorruptability, and we live in a world
      > where our very bodies and all we see and experience is based in
      corruptability, with the exception of the epinoia, or 'life force'
      which moves the dead, corruptable matter through living, then what
      effect could such a 'being' have, reguardless of deciphering the
      desire of something we cannot fathom anyway? This world, this matrix,
      is a crude classroom where we are placed to learn. Learn what? The
      truth, which must be discovered for yourself. You can be shown the
      doorway, but only you can walk thru the door.
      >
      > *****Why should we need to come here to learn the truth if that's
      what we already were before we came here? It seems that what you're
      saying is, we can be created or always have existed, but we cannot
      fix this problem and extract ourselves from it by ourselves, but
      there is no one to help us, nor "should we" want there to be. I
      disagree. If I were a little child who had been abducted and my
      parents did not look for me or have the police out looking for me,
      they wouldn't deserve to have me back when found, and they would be
      considered unfit to be parents.
      >
      > But if you're saying there is no Divine Sentient Being that can see
      our plight and help us, then how could any of this have happened in
      the first place? I read on a gnostic site that the Pleroma was
      invaded and Light Beings were taken. How could that happen? It sounds
      like a very insecure place if it can be invaded and ransacked like
      that. How could one lone demiurge, even with an army of 'archons', be
      more powerful that 6 billion living souls on a planet?
      >
      > whirled and inner peas
      > DarkChylde
      >
      > Gnothi Seauton
      > **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**
      >
      > *****Thanks for the conversation! I do appreciate that you
      responded. :-)
      > Dorina S
      >
    • imdarkchylde
      Spot On!!! Most eloquently put. whirled and inner peas DarkCHylde ... the ... for ... development ... negative ... going ... which ... are ... I ... is a ...
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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        Spot On!!! Most eloquently put.
        whirled and inner peas
        DarkCHylde


        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "bicyclesophie" <imamuzd@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hello Dorina,
        >
        > The problem of "if there is a God, then why doesn't he save me", or
        > "end suffering" will never go away with some people. People always
        > seem to want a benevolent dictator. They are also sold on the idea
        > that an absolutely good God would be running a world that is happy,
        > safe and fun. But there is error, and people will tend to choose
        the
        > negative path in order to satisfy sensory pleasures, or the desire
        for
        > power. They, in turn, have created for themselves a situation which
        > needs to be corrected. In the interest of their own self
        development
        > and spiritual evolution, there must be a meeting of one's own
        negative
        > choices and actions. We create our own suffering by choosing error,
        > which is freely offered to us by the illusions of the archons.
        >
        > As long as we continue to choose error and remain ignorant of the
        > forces which seek to hold us back, we will remain on this wheel
        going
        > around and around, questioning the existence of a greater force
        which
        > COULD help us if he wanted to. Simply removing the consequences of
        > our actions in order to alleviate our discomfort at having to face
        > ourselves, is not good, helpful or loving. This being said, there
        are
        > a myriad of situations and circumstances which are difficult to
        > discuss and philosophize about when it comes to the idea of karma.
        I
        > have been at the unbearable end of this myself, so I completely
        > understand the arguments that people will generally hurl against the
        > idea of having generated the issue.
        >
        > I myself, do not question the existence of a God beyond the realm of
        > the demiurge. Christ, as the gnostic revealer, taught that there
        is a
        > father hidden from us by the machinations of the demiurge, and our
        > initiation into gnosis will save us from ignorance of our true
        origin
        > and place in the universe.
        >
        > I used to wonder why Native Americans called the Great Spirit
        > "Grandfather", when we call God "Father". A grandfather created
        your
        > parent, the parent creates you. The hidden Father generated the
        > Sophia who is the mother of the gods, the aeons. This is the
        > beginning of our generation.
        >
        > Well, sorry this got to be so long. I hope it has been helpful.
        God
        > luck.
        >
        > Celeste
        >
      • Dorina S
        Hello Sophie, I just wanted to add one more thing I thought about. My son who is a Special Education Teacher, went from being a born-again Christian to an
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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          Hello Sophie,
           
          I just wanted to add one more thing I thought about. My son who is a Special Education Teacher, went from being a born-again Christian to an Agnostic to an Atheist because of his training and experience in this field. I'm sure he would have all the same objections to Gnosticism that he had to Christianity.
           
          He says some people are born without the mental capacity to understand any of this, and could never take action on their own behalf to free themselves from a matrix or save themselves from a hell. He has worked with these types of children every day, for over 10 years, and before that he worked in an adult group home. Neither society nor institutions appear to have answers, so I wouldn't feel comfortable choosing either. Any religion, theory or philosophy that isn't extremely simple and workable for everyone alike, is just too hard for many to accept, and I can understand that.
           
          Thanks for the conversation, and I do appreciate your responce! :-)
           
          Dorina S
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:54 AM
          Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Question from New Member

          .

        • Nick Lawrance
          From Dorina S The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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            From Dorina S
             
            The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not end suffering, either?
             
            If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without, then where did our spirit being originate?
            .......................................
             
            Hello Dorina
             
            I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
             
            "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts, fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius, Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
             
            "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one; furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)

            Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of “a divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.  The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive, oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself, benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth. Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess.  As paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was not possible then is possible now:
             
            " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show] disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you, while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat  you, he will not abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is short." (Zostrianos)
             
            Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher, better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
             
            " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
             
            In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be more proper to say that God is the only victim.
             
            "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
             
            The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulness).If forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
             
            “Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in the eternal realm].” (Gospel of Philip)
            Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was ‘fury’ that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..(......)" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
            Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we are told a vital constituent is our seeking.’
             
            To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter and the world of spirit:

            "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n the Origin of the World)

            The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
             
            "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved." (The Apocryphon According to John )
             
            The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it.”
             
            Nick

             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Dorina S
            Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:21 AM
            Subject: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member

            Hello Everyone,
             
            I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent God.
             
            The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not end suffering, either?
             
            If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without, then where did our spirit being originate?
             
            Thanks,
            Dorina S

          • D Celestia
            I mainly bring up the idea of a separate God because I read this, or what seems to be saying this, in Gnostic literature. As for myself, I do not believe in a
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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              I mainly bring up the idea of a separate God because I read this, or what seems to be saying this, in Gnostic literature. As for myself, I do not believe in a separate "God out There" but wondered why Gnostic writings include it, and even Jesus saying "The Father", etc. I'm sure it is metaphysical, but try explaining that to a secular humanist who wants none of it. They don't believe in metaphysics anymore than they do in spirituality.
               
              Thanks for all this info, though; it won't be lost on me!
               
              D
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:57 PM
              Subject: Re: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member

              Hello Dorina
               
              I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
               
              "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts, fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius, Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
               
              "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one; furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)

              Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of “a divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.  The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive, oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself, benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth. Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess.  As paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was not possible then is possible now:
               
              " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show] disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you, while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat  you, he will not abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is short." (Zostrianos)
               
              Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher, better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
               
              " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
               
              In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be more proper to say that God is the only victim.
               
              "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
               
              The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulne ss).If forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
               
              “Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in the eternal realm].” (Gospel of Philip)
              Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was ‘fury’ that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..(...... )" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
              Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we are told a vital constituent is our seeking.’
               
              To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter and the world of spirit:

              "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n the Origin of the World)

              The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
               
              "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved." (The Apocryphon According to John )
               
              The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it.”
               
              Nick
              .

            • imdarkchylde
              Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read it yet. whirled
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
                Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
                it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
                whirled and inner peas
                DarkChylde

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Lawrance"
                <nicholson2007wan@...> wrote:
                >
                > From Dorina S
                >
                > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s,
                then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help
                us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular
                humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no
                suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
                there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
                end suffering, either?
                >
                > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without,
                then where did our spirit being originate?
                > .......................................
                >
                > Hello Dorina
                >
                > I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
                Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of
                Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
                sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
                suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
                to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
                >
                > "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
                fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
                Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
                >
                > "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
                the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
                furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
                >
                >
                > Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual
                dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of "a
                divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this
                world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the
                divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.
                The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration
                to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal
                events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological
                represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a
                divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny
                in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only
                the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this
                world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to
                the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity
                must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive,
                oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from
                its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself,
                benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in
                brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected
                through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of
                Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the
                very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth.
                Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in
                disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess. As
                paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer
                but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was
                not possible then is possible now:
                >
                > " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show]
                disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your
                sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the
                immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you,
                while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat you, he will not
                abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust
                yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who
                are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and
                choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to
                suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release
                yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save
                yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent
                you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek
                when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is
                short." (Zostrianos)
                >
                > Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher,
                better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we
                could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our
                delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our
                spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
                >
                > " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
                kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
                If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede
                you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside
                you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you
                will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if
                you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are
                that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
                >
                > In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by
                discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be
                more proper to say that God is the only victim.
                >
                > "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
                >
                > The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall
                in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the
                cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and
                suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulness).If
                forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
                >
                > "Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in
                the eternal realm]." (Gospel of Philip)
                >
                > Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to
                the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the
                Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche
                itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the
                true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was 'fury'
                that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the
                Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the
                ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If
                you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..
                (......)" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different
                message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In
                contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel
                of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of
                prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's
                sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of
                salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The
                readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within
                themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and
                enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
                > Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for
                something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great
                revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some
                charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we
                are told a vital constituent is our seeking.'
                >
                > To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could
                have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound
                evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the
                quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter
                and the world of spirit:
                > "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to
                create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated
                them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against
                their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not
                realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them
                and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their
                modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n
                the Origin of the World)
                >
                > The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the
                spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world
                returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end
                otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
                >
                > "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they
                belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the
                despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he
                burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it
                down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is
                handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the
                archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and
                consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and
                acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."
                (The Apocryphon According to John )
                >
                > The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if
                only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look
                forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it."
                >
                > Nick
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Dorina S
                > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:21 AM
                > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Everyone,
                >
                > I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism
                for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created
                the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is
                a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent
                God.
                >
                > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
                God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not
                help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of
                secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be
                no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
                there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
                end suffering, either?
                >
                > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or
                without, then where did our spirit being originate?
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Dorina S
                >
              • bicyclesophie
                Hello Dorina, Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often times
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
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                  Hello Dorina,

                  Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how
                  best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often
                  times heated debate on whether or not a person would choose a
                  situation or circumstance. I mostly bow out of such debates because
                  I don't think it is simple and I cannot possibly do more than
                  speculate. Speculation is what I think gets mainstream churches into
                  trouble when they try to answer questions that they shouldn't try to
                  answer.

                  I do wonder, though, about individuals who are learning impaired to a
                  severe degree. They are so child-like, so dependant upon the
                  kindness and compassion of others. Do we learn more from them? Are
                  they teaching us how to nurture and stimulate the mind? Just a
                  thought. More speculation. What do I know about it? I said I
                  wouldn't speculate, my bad.

                  Your son's compassionate caring of these people reveals his god-like
                  traits. How wonderful to have awakened that in the self.

                  Take care.
                • bicyclesophie
                  Hello imdarkchylde, I enjoy reading your posts, you re very interesting and knowledgeable! Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Hello imdarkchylde,

                    I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and knowledgeable!  Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how they apply it in their lives. 

                    You mentioned two things that we have in common.  That you are a Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder.  Though I rarley have siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them.  Some would say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable, and in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I began my study of Gnosticism.  I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a certian point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy.  I felt absolutely energized the next morning.  Like you, I haven't attempted this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural.  I don't want to force such things.

                    As for Valentinian Gnosticism?  Fell in love with it right off.  It touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.

                    I look forward to having great chats with you!  Blessings!

                     


                     

                  • imdarkchylde
                    Brightest Blessings! Thank you! I don t feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so I am
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
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                      Brightest Blessings!
                      Thank you! I don't feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still
                      learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so
                      I am rarely bored. Unless the TV is on... :)
                      That is really interesting about your seizures and visions; I too was
                      only able to find real answers to mine when I got into gnostism. I
                      too look forward to discussions!
                      whirled and inner peas
                      DarkChylde

                      Gnothi Seauton
                      **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**


                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "bicyclesophie" <imamuzd@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello imdarkchylde,
                      >
                      > I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and
                      knowledgeable!
                      > Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
                      they
                      > apply it in their lives.
                      >
                      > You mentioned two things that we have in common. That you are a
                      > Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder. Though I rarley
                      have
                      > siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them. Some
                      would
                      > say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable,
                      and
                      > in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I
                      began my
                      > study of Gnosticism. I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a
                      certian
                      > point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy. I felt
                      > absolutely energized the next morning. Like you, I haven't
                      attempted
                      > this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural. I don't
                      want
                      > to force such things.
                      >
                      > As for Valentinian Gnosticism? Fell in love with it right off. It
                      > touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.
                      >
                      > I look forward to having great chats with you! Blessings!
                      >
                    • Nick Lawrance
                      From DarkChylde Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
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                        From DarkChylde
                        Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
                        Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
                        it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
                        whirled and inner peas
                        ...........................................
                         
                        Hi DarkChylde
                        The Gospel of Eve is only a fragment that has been found as far as I am aware, there not very much to it at all so you wont get much from reading it plus you find the usual church father's propaganda associated with it.
                         
                        Nick
                         

                      • pmcvflag
                        Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state... ... God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
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                          Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state...

                          >>>The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
                          God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does
                          not help us by putting an end to all this?<<<

                          Perhaps you could give us a little insight as to exactly where you
                          have come across the conflicting info. It could always be that the
                          problem lies with the sources rather than confusion on your part.
                          Allogenes and the Valentinian exposition (two historical Gnostic
                          texts from the two main categories of Gnosticism) offer roughly
                          similar cosmologies that look something like this;

                          It starts with a sort of negation. This source is not connected to
                          the world in any way, but is truly infininte. Not infinite like
                          numbers, or the universe, but TRUE infinity. This source isn't
                          a "God", or even exactly a being... it is beyond any label. At some
                          point there is a sort of reflection of this infinity, and this
                          shimmering infinity within the absolute infinity is the spiritual
                          source. This secondary infinity is where all the spiritual beings
                          (Aeons) emenate from. The Velentinian Exposition calls this source
                          the "Second Father", or just "Father".

                          What we then generally see happen in a Gnostic mythology is that
                          eventually there is a final Aeon who creates or begets a sort
                          of "God" who then creates the material world. This creator god is
                          often describe in a negative way, and equated with the Biblical Old
                          Testement God.

                          From a philosophical perspective I think part of the function of
                          this myth deals not only with the problem of the failings of the
                          material world, but also is a device meant to help describe the
                          problem of the concept of infinity vs the obvious fact of the finite
                          in front of us. How can we concieve various forms of infinity, and
                          if a god is absolute... how could it be smaller than the infinity
                          that us humans can concieve? It must be bigger, or it could not be
                          so absolute. The anthropomorphic gods that human minds CAN concieve
                          could not possibly fit this bill, but then how can we find
                          continuity between this infinity and the material universe? This is
                          a question that still bothers philosophers and scientists to this
                          day, though generally without the spiritual implications that
                          Gnosticism raises.

                          PMCV
                        • pmcvflag
                          Hey Nick You respond to Dorina... ... Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
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                            Hey Nick You respond to Dorina...

                            >>>I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
                            Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God
                            of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
                            sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
                            suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
                            to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.

                            "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
                            fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
                            Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)

                            "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
                            the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
                            furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
                            <<<

                            I did want to point out that the Teachings of Silvanus is likely not
                            a "Gnostic" text. In the intro to the text that we find in
                            Robinson's Nag Hammadi Library, Peel and Zandee even go so far as to
                            suggest part of it may have been meant as an attack on Gnostic
                            thinking.

                            Also, I believe that this description in Epiphanius was very likely
                            talking about the world soul rather than "God" or the spiritual
                            source.

                            This isn't to necessarily disagree with your point, but simply to
                            point out that I am not sure we can use these passages to imply
                            anything about a Gnostic theology.

                            Yeah, I know, I am being too picky again *lol*. The reason I mention
                            it though is that if we don't have those two passages informing the
                            theology, it opens up a number of other possible interpretations for
                            the texts that are Gnostic. It makes the notion of pantheism a good
                            deal less explicit in general Gnostic thinking, as well as opening
                            the question of just how the spark could relate to the source in
                            Gnostic texts.

                            PMCV
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