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  • Dorina S
    Hello Everyone, I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created the
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 14, 2007
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      Hello Everyone,
       
      I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent God.
       
      The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not end suffering, either?
       
      If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without, then where did our spirit being originate?
       
      Thanks,
      Dorina S
    • imdarkchylde
      Blessings and wingwhispers, Dorina!! I would say (as a gnostic and kabbalist) that there is no transendant God , (Good, maybe), because to say god of any
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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        Blessings and wingwhispers, Dorina!!
        I would say (as a gnostic and kabbalist) that there is no
        transendant 'God', (Good, maybe), because to say 'god' of any sort
        falls into the fallacy of other religions, always trying to seperate
        and alienate rather than base teachings on a connection of all of us
        to the ONE, which resides within us. Kabbalists call is 'the Light',
        and altho many Kabbalists speak of God, it isn't in the context of
        Gods such as YWHW, Allah, Odin, whatever. You might say the
        Gnostic's 'god' truly created the 'gods' most humans worship, albeit
        inadvertantly. As gnostics we know that the shaper(s) of the
        material world and Saboath, god of the forces who reigns now over
        the 'Matrix', to be Archons, and not the end-all Source. There is a
        transcendant Source, I refer to as the ONE, also known as Ain Sof,
        the Great Unmanifest, or the Ground of Being. This is were your
        spirit originated, your mind was formed as a result of the 'mixing'
        of the spiritual matter into the crude, physical matter, and it is
        your mind which both traps and frees you from this Matrix.
        This source, the ONE, doesn't require prayer, or blind obedience, or
        even faith- it requires the individual to realize the truth for
        themselves, and it would have a transforming effect on them and thier
        lives. Did me!
        You see, we don't need a god or savior to save us from the suffering
        of this world. Suffering will end when we humans end it, when we are
        united in this goal, and not before. And this will not come until we
        as humans realize our ultimate part to play, our connection to the
        ONE which is love. That is what unites and connects us, and would
        evolve us to do what is needed to end suffering.

        "You suffer and die because you love what decieves you," Gospel of
        Mary.

        So you see, it is not a matter of aloofness or uncaring. The Good,
        the ONE, the great Unmainifest, cannot do evil, even for the sake of
        good. And that would severely limit your available choices, would it
        not? I remember hearing the story of Cain and Abel when I was young,
        and really having a problem with the what I now know to be the
        demiurge for 'letting' Cain kill Abel. Now I know that what happens
        on this world is not the result of the Good, the ONE, but he result
        of a spiritual and cosmic mistake which caused the formation of the
        physical world in the first place. Study the creation 'story' of the
        Manicheeians, IMHO it mirrors the gnostic 'stories' found in the
        gnostic texts. If the ONE, the Father of the Entirety to use an idea
        from the Apoc. of John, is uncorruptability, and we live in a world
        where our very bodies and all we see and experience is based in
        corruptability, with the exception of the epinoia, or 'life force'
        which moves the dead, corruptable matter through living, then what
        effect could such a 'being' have, reguardless of deciphering the
        desire of something we cannot fathom anyway? This world, this
        matrix, is a crude classroom where we are placed to learn. Learn
        what? The truth, which must be discovered for yourself. You can be
        shown the doorway, but only you can walk thru the door.
        whirled and inner peas
        DarkChylde


        Gnothi Seauton
        **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**



        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Dorina S" <DorinasLib@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Everyone,
        >
        > I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism
        for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created
        the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is
        a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent
        God.
        >
        > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s,
        then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help
        us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular
        humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no
        suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
        there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
        end suffering, either?
        >
        > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without,
        then where did our spirit being originate?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Dorina S
        >
      • Dorina S
        Blessings and wingwhispers, Dorina!! I would say (as a gnostic and kabbalist) that there is no transendant God , (Good, maybe), because to say god of any
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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          Blessings and wingwhispers, Dorina!!

          I would say (as a gnostic and kabbalist) that there is no transendant 'God', (Good, maybe), because to say 'god' of any sort falls into the fallacy of other religions, always trying to seperate and alienate rather than base teachings on a connection of all of us to the ONE, which resides within us. Kabbalists call is 'the Light', and altho many Kabbalists speak of God, it isn't in the context of Gods such as YWHW, Allah, Odin, whatever. You might say the Gnostic's 'god' truly created the 'gods' most humans worship, albeit
          inadvertantly. As gnostics we know that the shaper(s) of the material world and Saboath, god of the forces who reigns now over the 'Matrix', to be Archons, and not the end-all Source.
           
          *****Greetings to you, also! Ok, so, is the exit of the Matrix a different "place", "dimension", or just what? I understand getting past the archons, but to where does one go when they accomplish that? Is it somewhere outside of this material universe? Can anything exist there?
           
           
          There is a transcendant Source, I refer to as the ONE, also known as Ain Sof, the Great Unmanifest, or the Ground of Being. This is were your spirit originated, your mind was formed as a result of the 'mixing' of the spiritual matter into the crude, physical matter, and it is your mind which both traps and frees you from this Matrix.This source, the ONE, doesn't require prayer, or blind obedience, or even faith- it requires the individual to realize the truth for themselves, and it would have a transforming effect on them and thier lives. Did me!
           
          *****How did we end up in physical matter? What is the story of the "fall of man" in your opinion? We learned "good and evil"? Why -- did we choose it or was it forced upon us by the Demiurge? How did he acquire these spirits that he trapped into physical matter? How could he just take us against our will and wishes? Or why would it be our will and wish to fall into matter? I heard someone on the radio last night say "we chose" against "God's" advice to learn good from evil. What if a parent on earth advised a 5-year-old not to play on the freeway? Is that good enough for them to have the right to be parents? It is just too cryptic to say it's "The One" -- gives it no need for accountability and puts all the blame on humans who have no conscious memory of how or why we got here.

          You see, we don't need a god or savior to save us from the suffering of this world. Suffering will end when we humans end it, when we are united in this goal, and not before. And this will not come until we
          as humans realize our ultimate part to play, our connection to the ONE which is love. That is what unites and connects us, and would evolve us to do what is needed to end suffering.
           
          *****If it's true what scientists and archeologists say, that the earth is now 3 billion years old, and that human life has been on this planet since its beginning, when will humans end this suffering on our own? When you say "would evolve us", what is keeping us from this? Why has it already taken 3 billion earth years, cycles of cataclysms and new beginnings, and things are getting worse instead of better? You might say "some people" are waking up and evolving, but surely that was true millions of years ago as well? There are more people on this planet now than ever before in known human history, all added together. Where would all these souls come from all of a sudden? Is the demiurge gaining in power and trapping more and more into this mess? There are way, way, way more sleeping people than awakened ones here, so I don't think it's a case of enlightened beings coming in to help us.
           
          "You suffer and die because you love what decieves you," Gospel of Mary.
           
          So you see, it is not a matter of aloofness or uncaring. The Good, the ONE, the great Unmainifest, cannot do evil, even for the sake of good. And that would severely limit your available choices, would it
          not?
           
          *****This probably isn't what you would expect me to say, but I say "no, it would not". I feel right now my choices are limited, and are only going to get more so if the rulers of this world have their way with us. In the movie "The Time Machine", and I've only ever seen the older version, I believe we are the Eloi and Christ is the Time Traveler. They would have gone on for eternity in their sleep stupor had he not stepped in to rescue them overtly. They were dumbed-down, the way the archons are working on to do to us. What will microchipping, forced vaccinations, relocation camps, etc., do to our choices? They are trying to remove our lucidity, our sentience, so we cannot become enlightened and liberated.
           
           
           I remember hearing the story of Cain and Abel when I was young, and really having a problem with the what I now know to be the demiurge for 'letting' Cain kill Abel. Now I know that what happens on this world is not the result of the Good, the ONE, but he result of a spiritual and cosmic mistake which caused the formation of the physical world in the first place. Study the creation 'story' of the
          Manicheeians, IMHO it mirrors the gnostic 'stories' found in the gnostic texts. If the ONE, the Father of the Entirety to use an idea from the Apoc. of John, is uncorruptability, and we live in a world
          where our very bodies and all we see and experience is based in corruptability, with the exception of the epinoia, or 'life force' which moves the dead, corruptable matter through living, then what effect could such a 'being' have, reguardless of deciphering the desire of something we cannot fathom anyway? This world, this matrix, is a crude classroom where we are placed to learn. Learn what? The truth, which must be discovered for yourself. You can be shown the doorway, but only you can walk thru the door.
           
          *****Why should we need to come here to learn the truth if that's what we already were before we came here? It seems that what you're saying is, we can be created or always have existed, but we cannot fix this problem and extract ourselves from it by ourselves, but there is no one to help us, nor "should we" want there to be. I disagree. If I were a little child who had been abducted and my parents did not look for me or have the police out looking for me, they wouldn't deserve to have me back when found, and they would be considered unfit to be parents.
           
          But if you're saying there is no Divine Sentient Being that can see our plight and help us, then how could any of this have happened in the first place? I read on a gnostic site that the Pleroma was invaded and Light Beings were taken. How could that happen? It sounds like a very insecure place if it can be invaded and ransacked like that. How could one lone demiurge, even with an army of 'archons', be more powerful that 6 billion living souls on a planet?

          whirled and inner peas
          DarkChylde
           
          Gnothi Seauton
          **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**
           
          *****Thanks for the conversation! I do appreciate that you responded. :-)
          Dorina S
        • bicyclesophie
          Hello Dorina, The problem of if there is a God, then why doesn t he save me , or end suffering will never go away with some people. People always seem to
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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            Hello Dorina,

            The problem of "if there is a God, then why doesn't he save me", or
            "end suffering" will never go away with some people. People always
            seem to want a benevolent dictator. They are also sold on the idea
            that an absolutely good God would be running a world that is happy,
            safe and fun. But there is error, and people will tend to choose the
            negative path in order to satisfy sensory pleasures, or the desire for
            power. They, in turn, have created for themselves a situation which
            needs to be corrected. In the interest of their own self development
            and spiritual evolution, there must be a meeting of one's own negative
            choices and actions. We create our own suffering by choosing error,
            which is freely offered to us by the illusions of the archons.

            As long as we continue to choose error and remain ignorant of the
            forces which seek to hold us back, we will remain on this wheel going
            around and around, questioning the existence of a greater force which
            COULD help us if he wanted to. Simply removing the consequences of
            our actions in order to alleviate our discomfort at having to face
            ourselves, is not good, helpful or loving. This being said, there are
            a myriad of situations and circumstances which are difficult to
            discuss and philosophize about when it comes to the idea of karma. I
            have been at the unbearable end of this myself, so I completely
            understand the arguments that people will generally hurl against the
            idea of having generated the issue.

            I myself, do not question the existence of a God beyond the realm of
            the demiurge. Christ, as the gnostic revealer, taught that there is a
            father hidden from us by the machinations of the demiurge, and our
            initiation into gnosis will save us from ignorance of our true origin
            and place in the universe.

            I used to wonder why Native Americans called the Great Spirit
            "Grandfather", when we call God "Father". A grandfather created your
            parent, the parent creates you. The hidden Father generated the
            Sophia who is the mother of the gods, the aeons. This is the
            beginning of our generation.

            Well, sorry this got to be so long. I hope it has been helpful. God
            luck.

            Celeste
          • imdarkchylde
            Blessings, Dorina!! I like that your question has been followed with more questions. That is how it is with me also. The most answers I discover, the
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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              Blessings, Dorina!!
              I like that your question has been followed with more questions.
              That is how it is with me also. The most answers I discover, the
              questions I discover also! :)

              *****Greetings to you, also! Ok, so, is the exit of the Matrix a
              different "place", "dimension", or just what? I understand getting
              past the archons, but to where does one go when they accomplish that?
              Is it somewhere outside of this material universe? Can anything exist
              there?

              I have been able to 'exit' the matrix, or consciuoness trapped in the
              physical plane only, a few times, so I speak of what I KNOW, as I
              experienced it and am coming to grips with undestanding what I
              experienced. I induced an OBE-out of body experience- (I only did
              that the one time, and never have since, not even tried)and I have
              also have a seizure disorder that causes me to have NDE-near death
              experiences-and I have had a few of those. My conscious and aware
              mind 'went' somewhere else, and I was still me, just a little
              different. And you carry the exit within you right now, but it would
              take meditation and work to accomplish it. According to Kabbalah, it
              is the 99%, whereas we live in the 1% (physical, or 'klippotic'
              realm). We exist right now in time and space, and it is difficult to
              describe anything outside that realm, because we are trapped by our
              minds. How can anything exist and not have an atomic stucture? We
              are helped and hindered by our analysis.
              Can anything exist there, no. Not a thing into itself. Called the
              Great Unmaifest, this emans nothing has manifested itself yet, it
              exists with the potential of everything and the distinction of
              nothing, or better to say, 'no thing,' or no one thing, but
              everything, the ALL, the ONE. Am I making sense? :))

              *****How did we end up in physical matter? What is the story of
              the "fall of man" in your opinion?

              I actually lean towards the idea that we didn't fall from grace. as
              the Garden of Eden story is typically interpreted, but that we were
              awakened, and the only 'sin' was the trapping of the Epinoia, the
              power of the Sophia, the life force, in matter by the demiurge. But
              before we villianize the demiurge too much, let's remember that
              according to the APoch. of John, 'all was done in the will of the
              Father of the Entirety.' So unlike conventional religious and
              Christian thinking, I don't hold that man 'fell' at all, and the
              snake was our rescuer, our helper.
              As to how we end up in physical matter is probably simulataneous with
              the Big Bang Theory, but having the formation of the physical
              universe was the end result of a spiritual conflict which seeks to
              resolve itself here, within each of us. I like the Manicheean
              version best, as it leaves out any cosmic bad guys, demiurge, Satan
              or any others, and simply has the basic sturggle of Good vs Bad.
              (Evil was originally an archery term, meanig an arrow fell short of
              the mark.) Basically it said that Good, represented by Air, Wind, and
              so forth lived in complete peace, without conflict; wheras Evil
              represented by a Dragon, I think, and a Bird, and I can't remember
              what else without study (I loaned out my book with the Manicheean
              texts so I can't reference right now) desired the tranquility Good
              seemed to exist in and they were in constant conflict, Evil was, so
              Evil determined to attack the Good and live in the peace and light,
              rather than in their conflict and darkness. Good created a being, I
              believe it was called the Hylic Man, who in turn created 6 (?
              5?) 'sons' or beings and they in turn defended the Good, pursuing
              Evil into the 'lowest realms' which is where the universe came later
              to be formed. Evil, sensing that the Hylic Man was about to conquer,
              consumed him, and his 'sons', mixing the Good with the Evil, and all
              of it mixing with the base matter of the 'lowest realm,' the one of
              matter. The world was created to extract the Light from the asmixed
              matter, and process it to join the Good, and Evil is to be left
              behind in the material realm. The texts go into greater detail, and
              to properly paraphrase and not leave anything out I would need them
              back!lol But according to the last of the texts I read, that Good
              will be back within itself, and the realm of matter will be a 'rock'
              placed forever between the two, so that Evil cannot attack Good
              again. I hope you haven't drowned on me yet. :)

              How did he acquire these spirits that he trapped into physical
              matter? How could he just take us against our will and wishes? Or why
              would it be our will and wish to fall into matter?

              In the Apoch of John, as well as the Hypostasis of the Archons, (and
              in the Bible in a info-limited form) the 'blowing in the face' to
              give the 'power of the mother', wherein the 'experiement' of the
              demiurge was given life, or the life force was trapped in matter.
              Some versions say the Sophia, the mother refered to, sent a 'angel'
              to the demiurge to inform him to do this. There was a branch of
              Gnostics that were completely aesetic, with some Gospels who
              specifically state that we should abstain from sex as it brings about
              a birth, which is another spirit trapped in a body and transformed
              from spirit to soul. I have also read that those who are spending
              their time trapped in this realm did so of their own accord, giving
              rise to the idea every soul was a spirit that was drawn into this
              realm, and must satiate whatever desire there is to be released from
              the desire of it and to be free of this realm. I have read that the
              toll fro the soul must be paid, a sum of gold, ut the gold of your
              purified soul, not a physical mineral. Then you are free to go an
              exist in other realms and extract the precious metals from your soul,
              as it is retransformed into spirit. I have also read it was once
              known how to get past these gatekeepers, with secret words and seals,
              but I am sure such information was lost in time. Mnay things are
              written and said, I try to be open to all, but to also seek a common
              thread which runs thru all, which is the connection to the soure, I
              feel. But that is strictly my opinion!:)
              Now, according to the Hymn of the Pearl (my all time personal fave of
              anything and everything) we were children, in our father's house, and
              we chose to undertake the journey into Egypt, and to get the pearl
              from the dragon. I like that idea, and the philosphy behind it. But
              then again, I am a Valentian gnostic. :)
              As to the future we are working toward, I have some beliefs (tricky
              word for gnostics, as we are supposed to KNOW not BELIEVE) based on
              some research by a friend of mine, and I'd be glad to send you some
              of it, if I can dig it out. It is far to complex and scientific a
              matter to condense here, and I'm sure to start the other members of
              the forum snoring (if they aren't already :)) But suffice it to say
              there are atmospheric conditions which are completely different and
              changing, some due to global warming and some due to things which are
              bigger and more complex than global warming, and as we are being
              exposed to such chemical and alchemical changes we are also getting
              the pressure in our society turned up, and it seems the good are
              getting better but as the equation seeks to balance itself the bad
              are getting worse. Like our technolgy, for all we make that is
              benefical we make that with which is destructive. I'd like to think
              there is an equality, a balance to it, but one has to be strictly
              objective and not prone to sentimentality to see it, and I am hardly
              that way, nor is most people. I am not as polarized as I used to be,
              and I seek the balance in all things, and the only thing I think you
              should never be moderate about is moderation. (Big smile)
              I think this species would evolve when we truly set aside differnces
              and embrace a greater good. Many people have double standards that
              they are perfectly comfortable with, they are prejudiced and
              hypocritical and choose this way because of the petty selfish
              pleasures it brings. If we could learn to have compassion rather
              than judgement, and learn to do what is right even if it is not easy
              or profitable, we could not change the world one at a time, but it
              will take each person decideing to change the world for the better in
              a personal way, in our own lives. If we were to love, and I mean
              selfless, unconditional love, ourselves and the world around us, even
              the ugly warts, then we would change ourselves, and others might
              catch on, and then we could change the world. Just a dream. And
              yes, we have been sent many lightbringers, Mani, Yeshua, Buddha, the
              list goes on and on, and they all say to love, and forgive, and treat
              one another with respect. We can all be lightbringers, but we have
              to KNOW it, not believe second hand accounts or have some kind of
              blind obedience prised by religions following blind gods.

              *****This probably isn't what you would expect me to say, but I
              say "no, it would not". I feel right now my choices are limited, and
              are only going to get more so if the rulers of this world have their
              way with us. In the movie "The Time Machine", and I've only ever seen
              the older version, I believe we are the Eloi and Christ is the Time
              Traveler. They would have gone on for eternity in their sleep stupor
              had he not stepped in to rescue them overtly. They were dumbed-down,
              the way the archons are working on to do to us. What will
              microchipping, forced vaccinations, relocation camps, etc., do to our
              choices? They are trying to remove our lucidity, our sentience, so we
              cannot become enlightened and liberated.

              I mean to say that Evil can do whatever, it isn't constrained by
              desires for peace and unity as Good would be, so Good has rules (Do
              No Harm) and Evil does not. So if I was to give you a choice of
              which side to 'fight' for, the side which adheres to a code and the
              side which does not, which side would you be on? Logically the side
              with no rules and no code would free you up to get your way. If you
              fight for the side with a code or rules, then your options become
              limited by the code or rules. Uncorruptablility cannot make us do
              what is wanted, we must seek it out. Kabballistic idea, there is no
              coersion in things spiritual.
              As to the Time Machine, I have not seen it. Who acts and directs
              it? You have peaked my interest. I wanna see it now. But we are
              dumbed down, by religions and mindless social morays, I think more
              than anything else. As long as we are fighting over who is God and
              what 'he' (always in monotheistic religions, funny that) wants and
              who 'he' wants to do it, we can't get anywhere.
              I just have one scientific fact to leave you with. The Bushmen of
              the Kalahari have no crime, no assalts, even the children do not
              misbehave. But an interesting factor to note is they live in
              complete harmony with nature, seeking only what they need from her,
              and the have no laws,no rules, no penalities or lawgivers. Wouldn't
              it be nice if we could encorperate our advanced technology into such
              a beautifully simple existance? Is impossible? I thought I was
              taught that science says nothing is impossible. Could we loose the
              consumerism, the addictions, the violence? I don't know, but I am
              intending to find out. I have personally determined to be kinder
              than neccessary, as everyone I meet is fighting some kind of battle.
              That will be my contribution to a better world. Love thy neighbor.
              Do unto others AS you would have them do unto you (not BEFORE they do
              unto you). :)
              Your Higher Self saw fit for you to live out this existance. Squeeze
              everything from it you can learn, and the Light will lead and direct
              you if you learn to focus on it and not on ego. It is understandable
              to learn the truth, and to feel the alienation now in a world so
              familiar (I am a stranger in strange land) , but you are hear for a
              reson, and you can rest assured learning the truth was not to seek a
              way out, but to seek the pearl you obviously came to find. But you
              have eaten the food, and been decieved, and you have forgotten from
              where you came and why you are here. But you are seeking, so espect
              to be disturbed. (Gospel of Thomas). You will be amazed, if the
              disturbance doesnt cause you to go back to religious reaonings.

              How could one lone demiurge, even with an army of 'archons', be more
              powerful that 6 billion living souls on a planet?

              Again, there is the code thing. Good cannot do Evil, even in the
              Manicheean texts the Hylic Man was created by Good but not Good of
              itself. What would pass for allowable as protection gets prets
              sticky in this realm, I can imagine a spiritual one without the
              constraints of time or space (well, actually I can't imagine it, but
              the contemplation of it can lead to mystical awakenings within the
              self). But also there werent' any 'souls' yet, they were spirits that
              had never been admixed with matter - that makes a 'soul'. ANd the
              demiurge lived in ignorance of the ONE, as well as his connection to
              that, and so he could attack, because he saw an enemy, whereas those
              in the pleroma knew the demiurge was a part of them and them a part
              of him and you do not attack yourself. They were not ignorant of the
              ONE or the connection. He was, so he saw the others as not being a
              part of him, or him a part of them, so he was free to attack.
              I remember being a little disturbed myself (musta found the truth,
              eh?) when I discovered the 'rest' of the scripture where Yeshua tells
              his disciples he is sending them 'out as sheep among the wolves.'
              They were distraught to hear this and asked him how to help their
              fear. "A dead sheep has nothing more to rear from a wolf," was the
              answer.
              whirled and inner peas
              DarkChylde

              Gnothi Seauton
              **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**











              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Dorina S" <DorinasLib@...> wrote:
              >
              > Blessings and wingwhispers, Dorina!!
              >
              > I would say (as a gnostic and kabbalist) that there is no
              transendant 'God', (Good, maybe), because to say 'god' of any sort
              falls into the fallacy of other religions, always trying to seperate
              and alienate rather than base teachings on a connection of all of us
              to the ONE, which resides within us. Kabbalists call is 'the Light',
              and altho many Kabbalists speak of God, it isn't in the context of
              Gods such as YWHW, Allah, Odin, whatever. You might say the
              Gnostic's 'god' truly created the 'gods' most humans worship, albeit
              > inadvertantly. As gnostics we know that the shaper(s) of the
              material world and Saboath, god of the forces who reigns now over
              the 'Matrix', to be Archons, and not the end-all Source.
              >
              > *****Greetings to you, also! Ok, so, is the exit of the Matrix a
              different "place", "dimension", or just what? I understand getting
              past the archons, but to where does one go when they accomplish that?
              Is it somewhere outside of this material universe? Can anything exist
              there?
              >
              >
              > There is a transcendant Source, I refer to as the ONE, also known
              as Ain Sof, the Great Unmanifest, or the Ground of Being. This is
              were your spirit originated, your mind was formed as a result of
              the 'mixing' of the spiritual matter into the crude, physical matter,
              and it is your mind which both traps and frees you from this
              Matrix.This source, the ONE, doesn't require prayer, or blind
              obedience, or even faith- it requires the individual to realize the
              truth for themselves, and it would have a transforming effect on them
              and thier lives. Did me!
              >
              > *****How did we end up in physical matter? What is the story of
              the "fall of man" in your opinion? > *****How did we end up in
              physical matter? What is the story of the "fall of man" in your
              opinion?How did he acquire these spirits that he trapped into
              physical matter? How could he just take us against our will and
              wishes? Or why would it be our will and wish to fall into matter? I
              heard someone on the radio last night say "we chose" against "God's"
              advice to learn good from evil. What if a parent on earth advised a 5-
              year-old not to play on the freeway? Is that good enough for them to
              have the right to be parents? It is just too cryptic to say it's "The
              One" -- gives it no need for accountability and puts all the blame on
              humans who have no conscious memory of how or why we got here.
              >
              > You see, we don't need a god or savior to save us from the
              suffering of this world. Suffering will end when we humans end it,
              when we are united in this goal, and not before. And this will not
              come until we
              > as humans realize our ultimate part to play, our connection to the
              ONE which is love. That is what unites and connects us, and would
              evolve us to do what is needed to end suffering.
              >
              > *****If it's true what scientists and archeologists say, that the
              earth is now 3 billion years old, and that human life has been on
              this planet since its beginning, when will humans end this suffering
              on our own? When you say "would evolve us", what is keeping us from
              this? Why has it already taken 3 billion earth years, cycles of
              cataclysms and new beginnings, and things are getting worse instead
              of better? You might say "some people" are waking up and evolving,
              but surely that was true millions of years ago as well? There are
              more people on this planet now than ever before in known human
              history, all added together. Where would all these souls come from
              all of a sudden? Is the demiurge gaining in power and trapping more
              and more into this mess? There are way, way, way more sleeping people
              than awakened ones here, so I don't think it's a case of enlightened
              beings coming in to help us.
              >
              > "You suffer and die because you love what decieves you," Gospel of
              Mary.
              >
              > So you see, it is not a matter of aloofness or uncaring. The Good,
              the ONE, the great Unmainifest, cannot do evil, even for the sake of
              good. And that would severely limit your available choices, would it
              > not?
              >
              > *****This probably isn't what you would expect me to say, but I
              say "no, it would not". I feel right now my choices are limited, and
              are only going to get more so if the rulers of this world have their
              way with us. In the movie "The Time Machine", and I've only ever seen
              the older version, I believe we are the Eloi and Christ is the Time
              Traveler. They would have gone on for eternity in their sleep stupor
              had he not stepped in to rescue them overtly. They were dumbed-down,
              the way the archons are working on to do to us. What will
              microchipping, forced vaccinations, relocation camps, etc., do to our
              choices? They are trying to remove our lucidity, our sentience, so we
              cannot become enlightened and liberated.
              >
              >
              > I remember hearing the story of Cain and Abel when I was young,
              and really having a problem with the what I now know to be the
              demiurge for 'letting' Cain kill Abel. Now I know that what happens
              on this world is not the result of the Good, the ONE, but he result
              of a spiritual and cosmic mistake which caused the formation of the
              physical world in the first place. Study the creation 'story' of the
              > Manicheeians, IMHO it mirrors the gnostic 'stories' found in the
              gnostic texts. If the ONE, the Father of the Entirety to use an idea
              from the Apoc. of John, is uncorruptability, and we live in a world
              > where our very bodies and all we see and experience is based in
              corruptability, with the exception of the epinoia, or 'life force'
              which moves the dead, corruptable matter through living, then what
              effect could such a 'being' have, reguardless of deciphering the
              desire of something we cannot fathom anyway? This world, this matrix,
              is a crude classroom where we are placed to learn. Learn what? The
              truth, which must be discovered for yourself. You can be shown the
              doorway, but only you can walk thru the door.
              >
              > *****Why should we need to come here to learn the truth if that's
              what we already were before we came here? It seems that what you're
              saying is, we can be created or always have existed, but we cannot
              fix this problem and extract ourselves from it by ourselves, but
              there is no one to help us, nor "should we" want there to be. I
              disagree. If I were a little child who had been abducted and my
              parents did not look for me or have the police out looking for me,
              they wouldn't deserve to have me back when found, and they would be
              considered unfit to be parents.
              >
              > But if you're saying there is no Divine Sentient Being that can see
              our plight and help us, then how could any of this have happened in
              the first place? I read on a gnostic site that the Pleroma was
              invaded and Light Beings were taken. How could that happen? It sounds
              like a very insecure place if it can be invaded and ransacked like
              that. How could one lone demiurge, even with an army of 'archons', be
              more powerful that 6 billion living souls on a planet?
              >
              > whirled and inner peas
              > DarkChylde
              >
              > Gnothi Seauton
              > **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**
              >
              > *****Thanks for the conversation! I do appreciate that you
              responded. :-)
              > Dorina S
              >
            • imdarkchylde
              Spot On!!! Most eloquently put. whirled and inner peas DarkCHylde ... the ... for ... development ... negative ... going ... which ... are ... I ... is a ...
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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                Spot On!!! Most eloquently put.
                whirled and inner peas
                DarkCHylde


                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "bicyclesophie" <imamuzd@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hello Dorina,
                >
                > The problem of "if there is a God, then why doesn't he save me", or
                > "end suffering" will never go away with some people. People always
                > seem to want a benevolent dictator. They are also sold on the idea
                > that an absolutely good God would be running a world that is happy,
                > safe and fun. But there is error, and people will tend to choose
                the
                > negative path in order to satisfy sensory pleasures, or the desire
                for
                > power. They, in turn, have created for themselves a situation which
                > needs to be corrected. In the interest of their own self
                development
                > and spiritual evolution, there must be a meeting of one's own
                negative
                > choices and actions. We create our own suffering by choosing error,
                > which is freely offered to us by the illusions of the archons.
                >
                > As long as we continue to choose error and remain ignorant of the
                > forces which seek to hold us back, we will remain on this wheel
                going
                > around and around, questioning the existence of a greater force
                which
                > COULD help us if he wanted to. Simply removing the consequences of
                > our actions in order to alleviate our discomfort at having to face
                > ourselves, is not good, helpful or loving. This being said, there
                are
                > a myriad of situations and circumstances which are difficult to
                > discuss and philosophize about when it comes to the idea of karma.
                I
                > have been at the unbearable end of this myself, so I completely
                > understand the arguments that people will generally hurl against the
                > idea of having generated the issue.
                >
                > I myself, do not question the existence of a God beyond the realm of
                > the demiurge. Christ, as the gnostic revealer, taught that there
                is a
                > father hidden from us by the machinations of the demiurge, and our
                > initiation into gnosis will save us from ignorance of our true
                origin
                > and place in the universe.
                >
                > I used to wonder why Native Americans called the Great Spirit
                > "Grandfather", when we call God "Father". A grandfather created
                your
                > parent, the parent creates you. The hidden Father generated the
                > Sophia who is the mother of the gods, the aeons. This is the
                > beginning of our generation.
                >
                > Well, sorry this got to be so long. I hope it has been helpful.
                God
                > luck.
                >
                > Celeste
                >
              • Dorina S
                Hello Sophie, I just wanted to add one more thing I thought about. My son who is a Special Education Teacher, went from being a born-again Christian to an
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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                  Hello Sophie,
                   
                  I just wanted to add one more thing I thought about. My son who is a Special Education Teacher, went from being a born-again Christian to an Agnostic to an Atheist because of his training and experience in this field. I'm sure he would have all the same objections to Gnosticism that he had to Christianity.
                   
                  He says some people are born without the mental capacity to understand any of this, and could never take action on their own behalf to free themselves from a matrix or save themselves from a hell. He has worked with these types of children every day, for over 10 years, and before that he worked in an adult group home. Neither society nor institutions appear to have answers, so I wouldn't feel comfortable choosing either. Any religion, theory or philosophy that isn't extremely simple and workable for everyone alike, is just too hard for many to accept, and I can understand that.
                   
                  Thanks for the conversation, and I do appreciate your responce! :-)
                   
                  Dorina S
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:54 AM
                  Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Question from New Member

                  .

                • Nick Lawrance
                  From Dorina S The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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                    From Dorina S
                     
                    The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not end suffering, either?
                     
                    If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without, then where did our spirit being originate?
                    .......................................
                     
                    Hello Dorina
                     
                    I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
                     
                    "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts, fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius, Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
                     
                    "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one; furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)

                    Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of “a divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.  The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive, oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself, benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth. Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess.  As paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was not possible then is possible now:
                     
                    " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show] disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you, while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat  you, he will not abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is short." (Zostrianos)
                     
                    Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher, better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
                     
                    " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
                     
                    In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be more proper to say that God is the only victim.
                     
                    "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
                     
                    The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulness).If forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
                     
                    “Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in the eternal realm].” (Gospel of Philip)
                    Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was ‘fury’ that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..(......)" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
                    Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we are told a vital constituent is our seeking.’
                     
                    To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter and the world of spirit:

                    "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n the Origin of the World)

                    The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
                     
                    "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved." (The Apocryphon According to John )
                     
                    The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it.”
                     
                    Nick

                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Dorina S
                    Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:21 AM
                    Subject: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member

                    Hello Everyone,
                     
                    I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent God.
                     
                    The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not end suffering, either?
                     
                    If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without, then where did our spirit being originate?
                     
                    Thanks,
                    Dorina S

                  • D Celestia
                    I mainly bring up the idea of a separate God because I read this, or what seems to be saying this, in Gnostic literature. As for myself, I do not believe in a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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                      I mainly bring up the idea of a separate God because I read this, or what seems to be saying this, in Gnostic literature. As for myself, I do not believe in a separate "God out There" but wondered why Gnostic writings include it, and even Jesus saying "The Father", etc. I'm sure it is metaphysical, but try explaining that to a secular humanist who wants none of it. They don't believe in metaphysics anymore than they do in spirituality.
                       
                      Thanks for all this info, though; it won't be lost on me!
                       
                      D
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:57 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member

                      Hello Dorina
                       
                      I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
                       
                      "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts, fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius, Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
                       
                      "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one; furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)

                      Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of “a divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.  The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive, oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself, benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth. Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess.  As paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was not possible then is possible now:
                       
                      " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show] disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you, while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat  you, he will not abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is short." (Zostrianos)
                       
                      Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher, better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
                       
                      " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
                       
                      In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be more proper to say that God is the only victim.
                       
                      "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
                       
                      The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulne ss).If forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
                       
                      “Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in the eternal realm].” (Gospel of Philip)
                      Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was ‘fury’ that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..(...... )" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
                      Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we are told a vital constituent is our seeking.’
                       
                      To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter and the world of spirit:

                      "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n the Origin of the World)

                      The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
                       
                      "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved." (The Apocryphon According to John )
                       
                      The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it.”
                       
                      Nick
                      .

                    • imdarkchylde
                      Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read it yet. whirled
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 15, 2007
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                        Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
                        Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
                        it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
                        whirled and inner peas
                        DarkChylde

                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Lawrance"
                        <nicholson2007wan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From Dorina S
                        >
                        > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a God/s,
                        then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help
                        us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of secular
                        humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be no
                        suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
                        there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
                        end suffering, either?
                        >
                        > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or without,
                        then where did our spirit being originate?
                        > .......................................
                        >
                        > Hello Dorina
                        >
                        > I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
                        Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of
                        Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
                        sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
                        suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
                        to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.
                        >
                        > "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
                        fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
                        Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)
                        >
                        > "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
                        the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
                        furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
                        >
                        >
                        > Suffering is the result of the Fall that occurred in the spiritual
                        dimension of being. Gnosticism was summarized in the idea of "a
                        divine spark in man, deriving from the divine realm, fallen into this
                        world of fate, birth and death, and needing to be awakened by the
                        divine counterpart of the self in order to be finally reintegrated.
                        The whole Gnostic doctrine of redemption centres upon the restoration
                        to its origin of this divine spark of light, which through fatal
                        events has "fallen" into the world, a restoration mythological
                        represented as an "ascent of the soul". The world is the product of a
                        divine tragedy, a disharmony in the realm of God, a baleful destiny
                        in which he was entangled and from which he must be set free. Only
                        the innermost or pneumatic man is the true man, and he is not of this
                        world, as his original in the total order, the deity, is external to
                        the cosmos as a whole. the view that the inner spirit of humanity
                        must be liberated from a world that is basically deceptive,
                        oppressive, and evil. In its unredeemed state the spirit, so far from
                        its source and immersed in soul and flesh, is unconscious of itself,
                        benumbed, asleep, or intoxicated by the poison of the world -- in
                        brief, it is ignorant. Its awakening and liberation are effected
                        through knowledge of its divine nature. According to the Gospel of
                        Truth the Fall occurs in the spiritual dimensions of being for the
                        very reason that we were ignorant of the one that brought us forth.
                        Our misguided search for the the source of our being resulted in
                        disaster and the source itself has become entangled in this mess. As
                        paradoxical as it may seem we have not come into this world to suffer
                        but we have actually come here to escape our suffering for what was
                        not possible then is possible now:
                        >
                        > " Know those who are alive and the holy seed of Seth. Do not [show]
                        disobedience to me. [Awaken] your divine part to God, and as for your
                        sinless elect soul, strengthen it. Behold death here and seek the
                        immutable ingenerateness, the [Father] of everything. He invites you,
                        while they reprove you. Although they ill-treat you, he will not
                        abandon you. Do not baptize yourselves with death nor entrust
                        yourselves to those who are inferior to you instead of to those who
                        are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness and
                        choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come to
                        suffer; rather, you have come to escape your bondage. Release
                        yourselves, and that which has bound you will be dissolved. Save
                        yourselves so that your soul may be saved. The kind Father has sent
                        you the Savior and given you strength. Why are you hesitating? Seek
                        when you are sought; when you are invited, listen, for time is
                        short." (Zostrianos)
                        >
                        > Their particular conviction was that at the last instant a higher,
                        better God inserted in each of us a spark of his divinity. If we
                        could attain enough knowledge (gnosis in Greek) to conquer our
                        delusional attachment to material reality, we could free our
                        spiritual selves to join our real Father in a better place.
                        >
                        > " Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's)
                        kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
                        If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede
                        you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside
                        you. When you know yourselves, then you will become known, and you
                        will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if
                        you will not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are
                        that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
                        >
                        > In Gnosticism God (the Transcendent God) has to be found by
                        discovery, God is as much a victim as we are, in fact it would be
                        more proper to say that God is the only victim.
                        >
                        > "Blessed is he who was, is and shall be" (Gospel of Philip)
                        >
                        > The story of Sophia is the story of our own soul. Owing to the Fall
                        in the begining during our incarnation we are of necessity given the
                        cup of forgetfulness to drink; we forget our cosmic origins and
                        suffer from a state of existential amnesia(forgetfulness).If
                        forgetfulness is the disease then rememberance is the healer.
                        >
                        > "Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer [i.e., in
                        the eternal realm]." (Gospel of Philip)
                        >
                        > Unfortunately redemption is not going to be an easy task owing to
                        the forces in the mind that prevent this. "The great insight of the
                        Gnostics was that to a limited but startling degree, the psyche
                        itself is the product of extraneous powers and forces alien to the
                        true self. The fundamental religious impulse of Gnosticism was 'fury'
                        that the very soul had been invaded and taken captive by the
                        Powers."(Walter Wink) According to the Gospel of Thomas we have the
                        ability free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths "Jesus said, "If
                        you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you..
                        (......)" The Gospel of Thomas proclaims a unique and very different
                        message from the current "accepted" New Testament Gospels. In
                        contrast to the way in which he is now portrayed, Jesus in the Gospel
                        of Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of
                        prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom, and dies for no one's
                        sins. Instead, Jesus provides insight and wisdom and offers a way of
                        salvation through the understandings of his teachings and words. The
                        readers of the Gospel of Thomas are invited to discover within
                        themselves the way of salvation, by interpreting the cryptic and
                        enigmatic "hidden sayings" of the living Jesus.
                        > Spiritual awareness comes about not by sitting idle, waiting for
                        something to descend from on high, or for some sudden great
                        revelation to occur spontaneously or be engendered by some
                        charismatic person. As the journey is presented to us in Thomas we
                        are told a vital constituent is our seeking.'
                        >
                        > To have been allocated a human birth is the greatest gift one could
                        have for the creation of humanity is a key element of that profound
                        evolutionary step, as the human kingdom is the one which develops the
                        quality of mind or manas, which bridges between the world of matter
                        and the world of spirit:
                        > "Then the authorities received the knowledge (gnosis) necessary to
                        create man. Sophia Zoe - she who is with Sabaoth - had anticipated
                        them. And she laughed at their decision. For they are blind: against
                        their own interests they ignorantly created him. And they do not
                        realize what they are about to do. The reason she anticipated them
                        and made her own man first, was in order that he might instruct their
                        modelled form how to despise them, and thus to escape from them. " (n
                        the Origin of the World)
                        >
                        > The healing of the rift within the Pleroma can only occur when the
                        spiritual element that has been scattered in the visible world
                        returns to its native realm then suffering will come to an end
                        otherwise the cycle of birth and death must contnue:
                        >
                        > "And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they
                        belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the
                        despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he
                        burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it
                        down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is
                        handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the
                        archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and
                        consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and
                        acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."
                        (The Apocryphon According to John )
                        >
                        > The irony of all this is that in a sense we are already redeemed if
                        only we could see it; as the Gospel of Thomas say's 'What you look
                        forward to has already occurred but you do not recognise it."
                        >
                        > Nick
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Dorina S
                        > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:21 AM
                        > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Question from New Member
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Everyone,
                        >
                        > I just joined this group, but have been studying about Gnosticism
                        for the past year. I understand there is no True Divinity who created
                        the material world, but what I do not understand is whether there is
                        a Divinity outside of this Matrix. Some say there is a Transcendent
                        God.
                        >
                        > The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
                        God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not
                        help us by putting an end to all this? The biggest complaint of
                        secular humanists is that if there was really a God, there would be
                        no suffering in this world. So how does a Gnostic seeker answer that
                        there "is" a God "beyond" creation, but that this Divinity does not
                        end suffering, either?
                        >
                        > If the answer is that there is no God anywhere, within or
                        without, then where did our spirit being originate?
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Dorina S
                        >
                      • bicyclesophie
                        Hello Dorina, Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often times
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
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                          Hello Dorina,

                          Yes, I understand that the subject of our own spirits deciding how
                          best to take on life lessons can bring one into a serious, and often
                          times heated debate on whether or not a person would choose a
                          situation or circumstance. I mostly bow out of such debates because
                          I don't think it is simple and I cannot possibly do more than
                          speculate. Speculation is what I think gets mainstream churches into
                          trouble when they try to answer questions that they shouldn't try to
                          answer.

                          I do wonder, though, about individuals who are learning impaired to a
                          severe degree. They are so child-like, so dependant upon the
                          kindness and compassion of others. Do we learn more from them? Are
                          they teaching us how to nurture and stimulate the mind? Just a
                          thought. More speculation. What do I know about it? I said I
                          wouldn't speculate, my bad.

                          Your son's compassionate caring of these people reveals his god-like
                          traits. How wonderful to have awakened that in the self.

                          Take care.
                        • bicyclesophie
                          Hello imdarkchylde, I enjoy reading your posts, you re very interesting and knowledgeable! Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
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                            Hello imdarkchylde,

                            I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and knowledgeable!  Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how they apply it in their lives. 

                            You mentioned two things that we have in common.  That you are a Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder.  Though I rarley have siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them.  Some would say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable, and in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I began my study of Gnosticism.  I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a certian point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy.  I felt absolutely energized the next morning.  Like you, I haven't attempted this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural.  I don't want to force such things.

                            As for Valentinian Gnosticism?  Fell in love with it right off.  It touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.

                            I look forward to having great chats with you!  Blessings!

                             


                             

                          • imdarkchylde
                            Brightest Blessings! Thank you! I don t feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so I am
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
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                              Brightest Blessings!
                              Thank you! I don't feel very knowlegdable, I feel I am still
                              learning, but luckly my passion is books and reading and learning so
                              I am rarely bored. Unless the TV is on... :)
                              That is really interesting about your seizures and visions; I too was
                              only able to find real answers to mine when I got into gnostism. I
                              too look forward to discussions!
                              whirled and inner peas
                              DarkChylde

                              Gnothi Seauton
                              **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**


                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "bicyclesophie" <imamuzd@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello imdarkchylde,
                              >
                              > I enjoy reading your posts, you're very interesting and
                              knowledgeable!
                              > Its exciting to read about what Gnosticism means to others and how
                              they
                              > apply it in their lives.
                              >
                              > You mentioned two things that we have in common. That you are a
                              > Valentinian and that you have a siezure disorder. Though I rarley
                              have
                              > siezures anymore, I have had visions during some of them. Some
                              would
                              > say that I hallucinated, but the things that I saw were verifiable,
                              and
                              > in one case I could not decipher until many years later, when I
                              began my
                              > study of Gnosticism. I also had an O.B.E. once which, after a
                              certian
                              > point in the experience, the memory of it becomes foggy. I felt
                              > absolutely energized the next morning. Like you, I haven't
                              attempted
                              > this since, as it was spontaneous and I assume, natural. I don't
                              want
                              > to force such things.
                              >
                              > As for Valentinian Gnosticism? Fell in love with it right off. It
                              > touched something deep inside of me that has driven me ever since.
                              >
                              > I look forward to having great chats with you! Blessings!
                              >
                            • Nick Lawrance
                              From DarkChylde Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!! Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of it, but haven t had the chance to read
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 16, 2007
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                                From DarkChylde
                                Blessings and wingwhispers, Nick!!
                                Do you know where I can get a copy of the Gospel of Eve? I heard of
                                it, but haven't had the chance to read it yet.
                                whirled and inner peas
                                ...........................................
                                 
                                Hi DarkChylde
                                The Gospel of Eve is only a fragment that has been found as far as I am aware, there not very much to it at all so you wont get much from reading it plus you find the usual church father's propaganda associated with it.
                                 
                                Nick
                                 

                              • pmcvflag
                                Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state... ... God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does not help us by putting an end to all
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
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                                  Hi Dorina, welcome to the group. You state...

                                  >>>The information I read seems to conflict, and if there is a
                                  God/s, then why is He/She/It/They so aloof to our plight and does
                                  not help us by putting an end to all this?<<<

                                  Perhaps you could give us a little insight as to exactly where you
                                  have come across the conflicting info. It could always be that the
                                  problem lies with the sources rather than confusion on your part.
                                  Allogenes and the Valentinian exposition (two historical Gnostic
                                  texts from the two main categories of Gnosticism) offer roughly
                                  similar cosmologies that look something like this;

                                  It starts with a sort of negation. This source is not connected to
                                  the world in any way, but is truly infininte. Not infinite like
                                  numbers, or the universe, but TRUE infinity. This source isn't
                                  a "God", or even exactly a being... it is beyond any label. At some
                                  point there is a sort of reflection of this infinity, and this
                                  shimmering infinity within the absolute infinity is the spiritual
                                  source. This secondary infinity is where all the spiritual beings
                                  (Aeons) emenate from. The Velentinian Exposition calls this source
                                  the "Second Father", or just "Father".

                                  What we then generally see happen in a Gnostic mythology is that
                                  eventually there is a final Aeon who creates or begets a sort
                                  of "God" who then creates the material world. This creator god is
                                  often describe in a negative way, and equated with the Biblical Old
                                  Testement God.

                                  From a philosophical perspective I think part of the function of
                                  this myth deals not only with the problem of the failings of the
                                  material world, but also is a device meant to help describe the
                                  problem of the concept of infinity vs the obvious fact of the finite
                                  in front of us. How can we concieve various forms of infinity, and
                                  if a god is absolute... how could it be smaller than the infinity
                                  that us humans can concieve? It must be bigger, or it could not be
                                  so absolute. The anthropomorphic gods that human minds CAN concieve
                                  could not possibly fit this bill, but then how can we find
                                  continuity between this infinity and the material universe? This is
                                  a question that still bothers philosophers and scientists to this
                                  day, though generally without the spiritual implications that
                                  Gnosticism raises.

                                  PMCV
                                • pmcvflag
                                  Hey Nick You respond to Dorina... ... Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 19, 2007
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                                    Hey Nick You respond to Dorina...

                                    >>>I am surprised that in studying Gnosticism you still see the
                                    Gnostic God as some sort of aloof deity like the Old Testament God
                                    of Orthodoxy. The Gnostic concepts as posted below from mainly Web
                                    sources make it quite clear that the Transcendent God in a sense
                                    suffers with us. God as something separate from ourselves is foreign
                                    to Gnosticism the spark of the divine is within all creatures.

                                    "They say that the same soul is scattered about in animals, beasts,
                                    fish, snakes, humans, trees, and products of nature. [Epiphanius,
                                    Panarion, 26.9.1.]" (Gospel of Eve)

                                    "But I say that God is the spiritual one. Man has taken shape from
                                    the substance of God. The divine soul shares partly in this one;
                                    furthermore, it shares partly in the flesh. "(Teachings of Silvanus)
                                    <<<

                                    I did want to point out that the Teachings of Silvanus is likely not
                                    a "Gnostic" text. In the intro to the text that we find in
                                    Robinson's Nag Hammadi Library, Peel and Zandee even go so far as to
                                    suggest part of it may have been meant as an attack on Gnostic
                                    thinking.

                                    Also, I believe that this description in Epiphanius was very likely
                                    talking about the world soul rather than "God" or the spiritual
                                    source.

                                    This isn't to necessarily disagree with your point, but simply to
                                    point out that I am not sure we can use these passages to imply
                                    anything about a Gnostic theology.

                                    Yeah, I know, I am being too picky again *lol*. The reason I mention
                                    it though is that if we don't have those two passages informing the
                                    theology, it opens up a number of other possible interpretations for
                                    the texts that are Gnostic. It makes the notion of pantheism a good
                                    deal less explicit in general Gnostic thinking, as well as opening
                                    the question of just how the spark could relate to the source in
                                    Gnostic texts.

                                    PMCV
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