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Re: A Question for the gruop...

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  • imdarkchylde
    I just felt it to be a moment of gnosis as I didn t just hear about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the ALL, the Unmainifest.
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
      I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear about
      from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the
      ALL, the Unmainifest. It wasn't due to visualization (although I
      think that to be a usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit
      it may have been triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I
      came back with that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left
      me irrevocably changed. If I had never experienced it, I would
      probably still believe as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one
      thing to read about it, contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite
      another to experience it.
      You know?
      LOL
      Whirled and inner peas
      DarkChylde


      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Darkchylde
      >
      > >>>My momnet I believe I had of gnosis, which had a transforming
      > effect on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the
      > time) was just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and
      contemplating
      > what was it was that distinquished life inside matter, the Epinoia
      > (although I didn't actually learn that term till later, I was
      barely
      > thru the Gospel of Thomas and the Apoch. of John then)I was trying
      to
      > see the iife in the crude matter and for just a moment, I saw
      > something, hard to describe, but like a light was in the eyes of
      the
      > cat, and this same light seemed to eminate from the plants in the
      > window, and seemed to even float by in the very air in thin
      streams,
      > and at that moment I felt an awareness, for lack of a better word,
      of
      > myself, the cat, the recliner, the room, the outside ground, it
      went
      > on and on and I was truly connected to everything and everone and I
      > was aware of molecules and stars all at the some moment. Everything
      > seemed an amazing dance of precision and chaos, of dark and light
      all
      > intwined, and of a supernal light which dimmed the ilght of stars
      and
      > sun and which existed in ever radiating streams and I craved this
      > light, I think, before I was back in the chair with a cat giving me
      a
      > weird look.<<<
      >
      > What you are calling "Gnosis" here, I would more generally refer to
      > as a specific type of "mystical experience". There can be no doubt
      > that a form of meditation generally is used to gain this
      experience,
      > and it is transformative. Gnostic texts do describe visionary
      > experiences like this one as part of the process toward Gnosis.
      >
      > PMCV
      >
    • Michael Leavitt
      Let s start with the garden variety type, any visualizing type, or....
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
        Let's start with the garden variety type, any visualizing type, or....

        pmcvflag wrote:
        > Mike
        >
        >
        >>>> Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?<<<
        >>>>
        >
        > Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is talking
        > about, I guess.
        >
        > PMCV
        >
        >
        >
      • pmcvflag
        Mike ... visualizing type, or....
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 14, 2006
          Mike

          >>>Let's start with the garden variety type (of meditation), any
          visualizing type, or....<<<

          I DO think that traditional Gnostics had a number of meditation
          techniques. I am guessing you would agree. I think that many people
          today kind of think of the psychology/biofeedback kind, or something
          that is a loose mixing of this with a kind of semi eastern style, when
          they hear the word "meditation". I think that this is valuable but not
          likely to have been part of Gnostic practice. Instead, what we
          generally see both in the texts and in accounts about the Gnostics
          leans more towards meditation techniques that are more closely
          connected to ritual initiation, glossolalia, intellectual expansion,
          and as you mention.... a sort of visualization.

          Of course, some of this may be dependant on which sect we are talking
          about, but I think much of this was pretty common to the philosophical
          Mystery schools of the time.

          As far as what it has to do with Gnosis? When I read Allogenes, for
          instance, it seems to me that there is an implied cycle, though I may
          reading that eisegetically because of my own spiritual inclinations. I
          see periods of questioning and intellectual revelation offset by a
          sort of visualization. This would fit in with how these various
          Hellenist mysteries seemed to view Plato's notion of "Gnosis" as a
          spiritual function. More explicitely, the attributes I listed some
          time back that we can find in the texts directly outlining Gnosis
          certainly demonstrate this multifold definition (and process) as well.
          Some types of meditation seem to bridge the experience with the
          cognitive in a way that could very easily be implied by the very
          definition of the word "Gnosis" in this context.

          In other words, I would say that some types of meditation were thought
          to be an important aspect of the process towards Gnosis, just as the
          mystical experience seems to be.

          PMCV


          > >
          > > Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is
          talking
          > > about, I guess.
          > >
          > > PMCV
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • pmcvflag
          Darkchylde ... about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the ALL, the Unmainifest.
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 14, 2006
            Darkchylde

            >>>I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear
            about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to
            the ALL, the Unmainifest.<<<

            Ah, I see what you mean. I had thought you were connecting the
            word "Gnosis" to the experience itself, but if I understand you now
            you mean to connect it to a sort of realization that contextualized
            the experience. Is that correct? It may sound like hair splitting, but
            the destinction could actually be very very important.

            >>>It wasn't due to visualization (although I think that to be a
            usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit it may have been
            triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I came back with
            that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left me irrevocably
            changed. If I had never experienced it, I would probably still believe
            as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one thing to read about it,
            contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite another to experience it.

            You know?<<<

            Yes, I do. You mentioned in a previous post how you may have taken the
            experience fery differently if you were, say, Catholic. I think that
            is a very good and important point... and very related to the subject
            of whether it is technically "Gnosis" or not. Many people who are more
            influenced by modern esoteric traditions equate the word with the
            experience itself. It is very often that we hear people say "look, I
            had this experience so now I have gnosis". In a modern sense of the
            word that is surely true, but I do find it unfortunate that people
            feel the need to foist this modern esoteric thinking back on
            traditional Gnostic thinking in such a way that causes them to misread
            the Gnostic texts.

            In the Gnostic texts this word is simply not a single cohesive
            experiencial instance. I do see how one could read Plato and think
            that is what he meant ("like a flash of light"), or read the Gnostic
            texts and believe they are talking about the mystical experience, but
            I think a closer reading shows this to be inaccurate. I think there is
            no question that the concept of Gnosis is used to describe more than
            one aspect of revelation, comprehension, and advancement on the
            initiatory path of the ancient Gnostics. The salvific effect
            of "Gnosis" is not generally attributed to a single event so far as I
            can remember from any of the texts (unless somebody else can think of
            an example).

            One could almost wonder if perhaps in modern English rather than
            claiming to have attained Gnosis, it could be more accurate to talk
            about various gnosises in a larger concept of Gnosis.... if that makes
            any sense. Just a thought.

            PMCV
          • imdarkchylde
            Blessings!! Sorry so long in responding. This post got buried in my inbox and I just now found it. Yes, that is exactly what I mean, and I don t think you are
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 20, 2006
              Blessings!!
              Sorry so long in responding. This post got buried in my inbox and I
              just now found it.
              Yes, that is exactly what I mean, and I don't think you are splitting
              hairs at all. I believe words are specific for us to communicate
              with, and that did need to be explained, you just did a better job of
              it than I.
              But it wasn't just a 'single event' although that moment had the more
              dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning
              the 'truth' on 'God' and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
              relaxed contemplation could be seen as meditation, which culmulated
              into an event wherein I was made aware of the ALL, and my connection
              to it.
              Kinda like in the Hymn of the Pearl, where the real task had been
              forgotten and the child and messenger sent to get the pearl had begun
              to serve the other king, then recieves a letter from 'home' which
              reminded the child of the task at hand and of their real identity.
              Reading the texts were like the letter, it reminded me of the truth,
              and for a momnet my perspective allowed me to experience the truth.
              Without having learned the truth, or being 'reminded of it' I
              wouldn't have really understood what I was seeing and the
              comprehension brought about by the event would have also been awry.
              That was the point I was trying to make, without success I think.LOL
              Hope you walk in Light and Love!!
              WHirled and inner peas
              DarkChylde


              Gnothi Seauton
              **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Darkchylde
              >
              > >>>I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear
              > about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had
              to
              > the ALL, the Unmainifest.<<<
              >
              > Ah, I see what you mean. I had thought you were connecting the
              > word "Gnosis" to the experience itself, but if I understand you now
              > you mean to connect it to a sort of realization that contextualized
              > the experience. Is that correct? It may sound like hair splitting,
              but
              > the destinction could actually be very very important.
              >
              > >>>It wasn't due to visualization (although I think that to be a
              > usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit it may have been
              > triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I came back with
              > that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left me
              irrevocably
              > changed. If I had never experienced it, I would probably still
              believe
              > as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one thing to read about it,
              > contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite another to experience
              it.
              >
              > You know?<<<
              >
              > Yes, I do. You mentioned in a previous post how you may have taken
              the
              > experience fery differently if you were, say, Catholic. I think
              that
              > is a very good and important point... and very related to the
              subject
              > of whether it is technically "Gnosis" or not. Many people who are
              more
              > influenced by modern esoteric traditions equate the word with the
              > experience itself. It is very often that we hear people say "look,
              I
              > had this experience so now I have gnosis". In a modern sense of the
              > word that is surely true, but I do find it unfortunate that people
              > feel the need to foist this modern esoteric thinking back on
              > traditional Gnostic thinking in such a way that causes them to
              misread
              > the Gnostic texts.
              >
              > In the Gnostic texts this word is simply not a single cohesive
              > experiencial instance. I do see how one could read Plato and think
              > that is what he meant ("like a flash of light"), or read the
              Gnostic
              > texts and believe they are talking about the mystical experience,
              but
              > I think a closer reading shows this to be inaccurate. I think there
              is
              > no question that the concept of Gnosis is used to describe more
              than
              > one aspect of revelation, comprehension, and advancement on the
              > initiatory path of the ancient Gnostics. The salvific effect
              > of "Gnosis" is not generally attributed to a single event so far as
              I
              > can remember from any of the texts (unless somebody else can think
              of
              > an example).
              >
              > One could almost wonder if perhaps in modern English rather than
              > claiming to have attained Gnosis, it could be more accurate to talk
              > about various gnosises in a larger concept of Gnosis.... if that
              makes
              > any sense. Just a thought.
              >
              > PMCV
              >
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Darkchylde ... more dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning the truth on God and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 29, 2006
                Hey Darkchylde

                >>>But it wasn't just a 'single event' although that moment had the
                more dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning
                the 'truth' on 'God' and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
                relaxed contemplation could be seen as meditation, which culmulated
                into an event wherein I was made aware of the ALL, and my connection
                to it.<<<

                AH, yes... a process then. I believe we understand each other on
                that one.

                >>>Kinda like in the Hymn of the Pearl, where the real task had been
                forgotten and the child and messenger sent to get the pearl had begun
                to serve the other king, then recieves a letter from 'home' which
                reminded the child of the task at hand and of their real identity.
                Reading the texts were like the letter, it reminded me of the truth,
                and for a momnet my perspective allowed me to experience the truth.
                Without having learned the truth, or being 'reminded of it' I
                wouldn't have really understood what I was seeing and the
                comprehension brought about by the event would have also been awry.
                That was the point I was trying to make, without success I think.LOL
                Hope you walk in Light and Love!!<<<

                It seems to me, then, that the next issue would be about exactly
                what kind of cosmology and soteriology that these events and studies
                imply to the person in question (in this case you or I).

                PMCV
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