Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[Gnosticism2] Re: A Question for the gruop...

Expand Messages
  • Scott Hutton
    What pray is a gruop ?All this verbiage about gnosticisms...pourquoi tous ces mots?  (English, obviously, ain t cuttin it).It s knowing,  a sudden
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
    • 0 Attachment

      What pray is a "gruop"?

      All this verbiage about gnosticisms...pourquoi tous ces mots?� (English, obviously, ain't cuttin' it).

      It's knowing,� a sudden knowning.� As in Bam!� Flash!

      At the risk of being dismissed from this list, I say:� Pay attention!

      Stop talking about.

      Listen.

      Stop postponing your enlightenment.� Stop putting off your sudden knowing.

      The postponement merely drags out frustration.� And trust an old man:� postponement has nothing to do with gnosticism.

      Listen!

      Listen!� Not to me, but to That!

      Scott




      --- On Thu 11/09, pmcvflag < no_reply@yahoogroups.com > wrote:
      From: pmcvflag [mailto: no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
      To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 01:19:49 -0000
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: A Question for the gruop...














      Hey Darkchylde

      >>>I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
      adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
      same tree.<<<

      Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch on
      the tree of "Esotericism" , and as such has things in common with other
      forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the trees
      of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with other
      groups in those categories as well.

      >>>But my question is this. What exactly is it we are to 'know?'<<<

      Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis". For
      instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis" to
      attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
      to "know" is how to attain those powers.

      In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the historical
      Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
      Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive understanding
      that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
      knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what we
      must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and how we
      as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and where
      we can return).

      >>>Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes contridictory
      texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something more?
      Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in our
      perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists beyond
      what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<

      In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
      understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure material
      reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction between
      a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing that
      goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
      contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
      intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
      salvational "Gnosis".

      I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
      traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am a
      person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to teach
      me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
      contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me some
      ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness and
      evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely work on
      my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously understood.
      Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that includes
      several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have to do
      with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the two
      methods you are using to teach me.

      As Plato said...

      "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
      words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued intercourse
      between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly,
      like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the
      soul and straightway nourishes itself."

      >>>What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives
      (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
      or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<

      Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the light
      flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse it
      with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the traditional
      meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a process
      that gives an entire perspective.

      In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know
      then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis". At
      the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of those
      dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening, while
      the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis) must
      have both the event and the context.

      Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability to
      ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete understanding
      of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where that
      bike will take you.

      Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?

      PMCV










      No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
      Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

    • pmcvflag
      Hey Scott You state.... ... *lol* Well, a gruop appears to be a typo for group ... as in this forum (the gathering of people posting on the message board
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Hey Scott

        You state....

        >>>What pray is a "gruop"?<<<

        *lol* Well, a "gruop" appears to be a typo for "group"... as in this
        forum (the gathering of people posting on the message board that you
        are now presenting your own ideas on)

        >>>Stop postponing your enlightenment. Stop putting off your sudden
        knowing.<<<

        In order to give such advice you would have to assume that the
        person you are talking to has indeed put it off or not attained it.
        That would be rather presumptuous.

        In any event, "Gnosis" in the traditional sense isn't the same thing
        as "enlightenment" in the modern sense. What we are talking about
        isn't necessarily identical. With that in mind, can you clarify for
        us whether you feel your notion of "Gnosis" is the same as that
        presented in the traditional Gnostic texts? It could be important
        considering the fact that you are talking to a group that uses a
        very specific lingo.

        >>>Stop talking about.<<<

        This is a forum. That means by definition we are here to talk. You,
        in fact, just talked about it as well.

        PMCV
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Darkchylde ... LOL Just want to clarify one thing. (I know, *groan*)
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Hey Darkchylde

          >>>Now this was one thing I could sink my teeth in, so to speak. Yum!
          LOL Just want to clarify one thing. (I know, *groan*)<<<

          Glad I was understandable *lol*. I am always unsure if I am actually
          making sense. Anyway, no groans here... it is part of what we are
          here to talk about, after all.

          >>>A similar analogy would be describing red to a person born blind.
          I can describe the color and its effect and everything most
          loquaciously (love that word, have so little chance to use it in
          conversation) but how can a blind person know what red is until
          he/she sees it for themselves? To me any discussion of 'gnosis'
          would be similar.<<<

          I think in one sense your analogy is very apropos. I wonder, though,
          if it could confuse some people into thinking "Gnosis" is an
          experience the way seeing a color is. Still, I can't think of a
          better example off the top of my head. I think perhaps just to
          clarify we could simply add that the person who sees the red without
          thinking about it has no more "Gnosis" of red than the person who
          can describe it without seeing it. Both have only one side of the
          understanding.

          I think many people would rhetorically ask "well, isn't it the
          seeing of the red that is the important part, the final goal?" I
          think that when looking at the Gnostic perspective the answer to
          that question is, no. A computer scanner can detect red vs black
          without any cognitive effect. An animal can experience red without
          comprehending that the experience has some meaning beyond the simple
          fact of being red (why is the stop sign red? does the redness of
          some flowers have a function? why should Roxanne not "put on the red
          light"? how did "red" come to be seperate from "white" in the first
          place? Is there value to viewing colors beyond greyscale?)

          >>>I believe you are correct in the fact it is not one aspect to
          conquer in order to achieve gnosis, but many. A teacher can show the
          student the door but the student must pass thru for themselves. I do
          believe that someone that has aquired gnosis, if they have truly had
          it, it will change them irrevocably.<<<

          I think nobody would quibble with you on that point.

          >>>It did me. But it was a combination of being exposed to new
          ideas, having a mind open to that experience, and accepting the
          experience when it came, and it changed my life. It was a
          combination of things, like you said about the bike. I learned how a
          bike is made, how it works, and then I learned to ride. Learning to
          ride alone would not have made the experience complete, learning to
          make the bike and how it works would not have make the experience
          complete. But the combination of the elements would make me a biker.
          Snicker. I was blind, and had red dscribed to me. I hungered for
          more than a description, I wanted to know, to experience red. Now I
          can see.<<<

          Some would say that perhaps another step in understanding red would
          be to form a common conceptualization with others. As Isidore of
          Seville said "Who knoweth not the names, knoweth not the subject".

          >>>I think many are frustrated as they get the descriptions, they
          get the idea- they get it here (touch the corner of the crainum) but
          they don't feel it here (touch the heart.) It has to be the entire
          experience. Mind, understanding; body, feeling; spirit,
          transformation. Am I in the ballpark at least? Or am I just parking
          cars?LOL<<<

          Sounds right to me. As you state, it goes both ways. Just as people
          sometimes get it in the head, but not the heart... there are many
          who get it in the heart but don't quite get it in the head yet.
          Either direction fails to be Gnosis.

          In fact, that does kind of help give perspective to the function of
          this forum. There are some 300 groups in the "Gnosticism" section of
          Yahoo Groups that deal with the heart side so we figured perhaps we
          could fill the gap on the head side *lol*. Well, just joking...
          partly.

          Seriously though, to be more technical; if one doesn't know about
          the Demiurge, the fine points of the difference between the
          apophatic infinity vs the kind of infinity presented by the "second
          Father", the meaning of the fall of Sophia, the function of
          intellect as it is presented, say, in Allogenes... then one has not
          attained "Gnosis", by definition of the word.

          What I am saying then, and I think you are as well, is that in
          traditional Gnostic thinking the experience and the context simply
          cannot be removed from each other and still constitute "Gnosis".
          That is why we cannot be so quick to discard or discount those moldy
          old texts. ;)

          PMCV
        • imdarkchylde
          Blessings, Scott!! Yeah, my fingers get dyslexic from time to time, and I don t always proofread. My spelling ain t so hot either!LOL I don t remember reading
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Blessings, Scott!!
            Yeah, my fingers get dyslexic from time to time, and I don't always
            proofread. My spelling ain't so hot either!LOL
            I don't remember reading anything that you have posted in English, so
            why do you think English isn't cutting it? Perhaps Hebrew would? Or
            Greek? I know, Martian!LOL
            I agree with you that a moment of Gnosis is Bam. But without prior
            understanding of what is happening, which would come from an
            understanding and study from the gnostic teachers, one wouldn't
            really understand what is happening to them in the first place.
            I really don't think I would have had my moment of Gnosis had I not
            started studying Gnosticism to begin with. When I was a little girl
            and growing up in the original Southern Bible-thumper family, a Bam
            moment would have done me little good, or I would have misinterpreted
            it as coming from what I thought was God but it was really only the
            demiuge. Same thing for when I was a witch. I had 'psychic'
            experiences (fire scrying and the like) but that is not what I am
            talking about when I am talking about a moment of gnosis. I believe
            when it hits you, it is like a strike of lightning. But just as
            certain environmental conditions must be met for lightning to appear,
            then conditions for gnosis must come the same way. I personally feel
            it is a mixture of having an open mind (and that isn't as easy as it
            sounds, I know MANY people who THINK their mind is open, but when you
            speak or discuss something with them they are sooo busy being 'right'
            they aren't open), study and meditation/contemplation on those things
            learned.
            That is how it happened with me. And believe me, I AM LISTENING.
            Always. Waiting for another lightning strike, or the little moments
            I have epiphanies, which I consider to be a vehicle to gnosis, but
            not the only vehicle.
            Are YOU listening?
            BTW, my knowledge of French is limited to some profanity, so what,
            pray tell, is pourquoi tous ces mots?
            Whirled and inner peas
            DarkChylde

            Gnothi Seauton
            **Love thy enemies. It messes with their head!*

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Hutton"<hmshutton@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > What pray is a "gruop"?All this verbiage about
            gnosticisms...pourquoi tous ces mots?  (English, obviously, ain't
            cuttin' it).It's knowing,  a sudden knowning.  As in Bam!  Flash!At
            the risk of being dismissed from this list, I say:  Pay attention!
            Stop talking about.Listen.Stop postponing your enlightenment.  Stop
            putting off your sudden knowing.The postponement merely drags out
            frustration.  And trust an old man:  postponement has nothing to do
            with gnosticism.Listen!Listen!  Not to me, but to That!Scott --- On
            Thu 11/09, pmcvflag < no_reply@yahoogroups.com > wrote:From:
            pmcvflag [mailto: no_reply@yahoogroups.com]To: gnosticism2@...: Fri,
            10 Nov 2006 01:19:49 -0000Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: A Question for
            the gruop... Hey Darkchylde>>>I think the
            definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessedadequately enough
            to show that many have differing branches of thesame
            tree.<<<Yes, I think most of us would agree
            > that "Gnosticism" is a branch on the tree of
            "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with other
            forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the trees
            of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see
            similarities with other groups in those categories as
            well.>>>But my question is this. What exactly is it we are
            to 'know?'<<<Of course that question would depend on who's
            notion of "gnosis". For instance, many New Age groups seem
            to connect the term "gnosis" to attaining some kind of
            psychic powers... so what it is they are to "know" is how
            to attain those powers.In my perspective, when we bring that focus
            down to the historical Gnostics the subject gains a more specific
            meaning. According to Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and
            comprehensive understanding that includes very specific cosmological
            knowledge, personal knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More
            > specifically, what we must know is who we are within a wider
            spiritual cosmology, and how we as individuals relate to that
            cosmology (where we are from, and where we can return).
            >>>Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes
            contridictory texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there
            something more? Why would there be all this learning if we are still
            trapped in our perspectives and do not realize the greater reality
            that exists beyond what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?
            <<<In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is
            the act of understanding itself that frees one from the confines of
            pure material reactonary perspective. This is very much like the
            destinction between a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that
            it is a knowing that goes beyond direct perception. The understaning
            in question must contain both the experience based form of knowledge
            AND the intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
            salvational
            > "Gnosis".I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I
            were part of a traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now
            since I am a person who is not familiar with the "mystery"
            you are going to teach me, you would have to start by helping me
            understand HOW to contextualize things correctly for the system. You
            might give me some ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen
            my awareness and evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you
            would likely work on my ability to conceptualize things I had not
            previously understood. Eventually I will have to come to understand a
            cosmology that includes several very complicated notions of infinity,
            and what they have to do with me. I will have to gain that
            understanding by connecting the two methods you are using to teach
            me.As Plato said..."This knowledge is not something that can be
            learned only through words like other sciences; but rather after long-
            continued intercourse between teacher and
            > pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly, like light
            flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the soul and
            straightway nourishes itself.">>>What marks a moment
            of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives (or mind) to transend
            reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal' or 'holy grail' that we are
            to seek?<<<Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough
            presenting it (the light flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be
            careful not to confuse it with the moment of mystical experience.
            Gnosis, in the traditional meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is
            the attainment of a process that gives an entire perspective.In other
            words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know then if I
            have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis". At
            the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of those
            dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening, while
            the other is just a context. A true full
            > comprehension (gnosis) must have both the event and the
            context.Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the
            ability to ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete
            understanding of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and
            finally where that bike will take you.Anyone here disagree or have
            thoughts?PMCV
            >
            > _______________________________________________
            > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
            > Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
            >
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Darkchylde ... Scott is not listening. Guess he didn t like us *lol*. Que Seurat, Seurat. PMCV
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hey Darkchylde

              >>>Blessings, Scott!! .....Are YOU listening?<<<<

              Scott is not listening. Guess he didn't like us *lol*. Que Seurat,
              Seurat.

              PMCV
            • Michael Leavitt
              ... Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                pmcvflag wrote:
                > Hey Darkchylde
                >
                >
                >>>> I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
                >>>>
                > adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
                > same tree.<<<
                >
                > Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch on
                > the tree of "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with other
                > forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the trees
                > of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with other
                > groups in those categories as well.
                >
                >
                >>>> But my question is this. What exactly is it we are to 'know?'<<<
                >>>>
                >
                > Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis". For
                > instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis" to
                > attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
                > to "know" is how to attain those powers.
                >
                > In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the historical
                > Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
                > Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive understanding
                > that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
                > knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what we
                > must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and how we
                > as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and where
                > we can return).
                >
                >
                >>>> Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes contridictory
                >>>>
                > texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something more?
                > Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in our
                > perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists beyond
                > what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<
                >
                > In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
                > understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure material
                > reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction between
                > a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing that
                > goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
                > contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
                > intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
                > salvational "Gnosis".
                >
                > I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
                > traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am a
                > person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to teach
                > me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
                > contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me some
                > ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness and
                > evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely work on
                > my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously understood.
                > Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that includes
                > several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have to do
                > with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the two
                > methods you are using to teach me.
                >
                > As Plato said...
                >
                > "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
                > words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued intercourse
                > between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly,
                > like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the
                > soul and straightway nourishes itself."
                >
                >
                >>>> What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives
                >>>>
                > (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
                > or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<
                >
                > Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the light
                > flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse it
                > with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the traditional
                > meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a process
                > that gives an entire perspective.
                >
                > In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know
                > then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis". At
                > the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of those
                > dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening, while
                > the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis) must
                > have both the event and the context.
                >
                > Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability to
                > ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete understanding
                > of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where that
                > bike will take you.
                >
                > Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?
                >
                > PMCV
                >
                >
                Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?
                >
                >
              • imdarkchylde
                Sure hope I didn t offend. Sagitarrians are not known for tact and diplomacy. (Been told all us centaurs must be born in a barn.LOL) I m going to have to
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sure hope I didn't offend. Sagitarrians are not known for tact and
                  diplomacy. (Been told all us centaurs must be born in a barn.LOL)
                  I'm going to have to brush up on my French, too at this rate!LOL
                  Whirled and inner peas
                  DarkChylde


                  Gnothi Seauton

                  **Love thy enemies. It messes with their heads!**

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Darkchylde
                  >
                  > >>>Blessings, Scott!! .....Are YOU listening?<<<<
                  >
                  > Scott is not listening. Guess he didn't like us *lol*. Que Seurat,
                  > Seurat.
                  >
                  > PMCV
                  >
                • imdarkchylde
                  Most excellent question! I kinda brushed on contemplation with understanding and study, but I think if would be helpful if not necessary to have a foundation
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Most excellent question!
                    I kinda brushed on contemplation with understanding and study, but I
                    think if would be helpful if not necessary to have a foundation in
                    some sort of gnostic thought, freeing the perspective to experience
                    it as a focused event.
                    I know this forum operates in a historical venure, but the only way
                    to express a view on meditation and gnosis is to relate some personal
                    experiences. Hope I don't offend!! LOL
                    I used to mediate when I was into Keltic Shamanism and when I was
                    fire-scrying I had and OBE (out of body experience) but I panicked
                    and was instantly 'back'. It was there, it was real, and it came by
                    meditaion and study but it wasn't gnosis. I didn't experience the
                    whole floating or seeing my body thing, but my consciousness was
                    instantly transported to a place of complete and utter blackness - no
                    stars or anything. I was terrified (I have since heard this was
                    described as the 'terror threshold' and I was more of a chicken than
                    I thought LOL) and have hesitated to open myself up to that again, as
                    I 'returned' in a sweat and panting. I had experienced another
                    realitiy, but without focus or direction or anything it only showed
                    me there is realities other than the physical one now. I now
                    understand I had discovered the tzimtzum, the original constriction
                    of the Light of the Unmainfest. "When I formed the light I created
                    the Darkness" it says in Isaiah.
                    My momnet I believe I had of gnosis, which had a transforming effect
                    on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the time) was
                    just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and contemplating what was
                    it was that distinquished life inside matter, the Epinoia (although I
                    didn't actually learn that term till later, I was barely thru the
                    Gospel of Thomas and the Apoch. of John then)I was trying to see the
                    iife in the crude matter and for just a moment, I saw something, hard
                    to describe, but like a light was in the eyes of the cat, and this
                    same light seemed to eminate from the plants in the window, and
                    seemed to even float by in the very air in thin streams, and at that
                    moment I felt an awareness, for lack of a better word, of myself, the
                    cat, the recliner, the room, the outside ground, it went on and on
                    and I was truly connected to everything and everone and I was aware
                    of molecules and stars all at the some moment. Everything seemed an
                    amazing dance of precision and chaos, of dark and light all intwined,
                    and of a supernal light which dimmed the ilght of stars and sun and
                    which existed in ever radiating streams and I craved this light, I
                    think, before I was back in the chair with a cat giving me a weird
                    look. That I feel went past psychic, and I truly changed and found
                    the path I now have which brings me this light in small doses.
                    Sometimes I think I would rather try to recreate that experience
                    rather than OBEs which terrified me.
                    Meditation was key in both but one was frightening and didn't change
                    my life, as it was unfocused and I was still 'in the dark', but the
                    other was connectied to something wonderful and full of light. I
                    experienced it and it was awakening. I know it, it isn't a belief,
                    faith or acid flashback (LOL) but a reality just as real or more than
                    the one I experience as I type on this keyboard. Both had left me
                    with a feeling of being really awake for the first time, like water
                    splashed in your face when your drowsing.
                    So shove me in the shallow water before I get too deep!LOL
                    Be Blessed!!
                    Whirled and inner peas
                    DarkChylde



                    Gnothi Seauton

                    **Love thy enemies. It messes with their heads!**


                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > pmcvflag wrote:
                    > > Hey Darkchylde
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>>> I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
                    > >>>>
                    > > adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
                    > > same tree.<<<
                    > >
                    > > Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch
                    on
                    > > the tree of "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with
                    other
                    > > forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the
                    trees
                    > > of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with
                    other
                    > > groups in those categories as well.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>>> But my question is this. What exactly is it we are
                    to 'know?'<<<
                    > >>>>
                    > >
                    > > Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis".
                    For
                    > > instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis"
                    to
                    > > attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
                    > > to "know" is how to attain those powers.
                    > >
                    > > In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the
                    historical
                    > > Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
                    > > Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive
                    understanding
                    > > that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
                    > > knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what
                    we
                    > > must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and
                    how we
                    > > as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and
                    where
                    > > we can return).
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>>> Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes
                    contridictory
                    > >>>>
                    > > texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something
                    more?
                    > > Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in
                    our
                    > > perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists
                    beyond
                    > > what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<
                    > >
                    > > In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
                    > > understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure
                    material
                    > > reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction
                    between
                    > > a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing
                    that
                    > > goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
                    > > contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
                    > > intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
                    > > salvational "Gnosis".
                    > >
                    > > I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
                    > > traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am
                    a
                    > > person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to
                    teach
                    > > me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
                    > > contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me
                    some
                    > > ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness
                    and
                    > > evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely
                    work on
                    > > my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously
                    understood.
                    > > Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that
                    includes
                    > > several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have
                    to do
                    > > with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the
                    two
                    > > methods you are using to teach me.
                    > >
                    > > As Plato said...
                    > >
                    > > "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
                    > > words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued
                    intercourse
                    > > between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject,
                    suddenly,
                    > > like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in
                    the
                    > > soul and straightway nourishes itself."
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>>> What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our
                    perspectives
                    > >>>>
                    > > (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
                    > > or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<
                    > >
                    > > Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the
                    light
                    > > flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse
                    it
                    > > with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the
                    traditional
                    > > meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a
                    process
                    > > that gives an entire perspective.
                    > >
                    > > In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to
                    know
                    > > then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't
                    have "Gnosis". At
                    > > the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of
                    those
                    > > dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening,
                    while
                    > > the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis)
                    must
                    > > have both the event and the context.
                    > >
                    > > Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability
                    to
                    > > ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete
                    understanding
                    > > of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where
                    that
                    > > bike will take you.
                    > >
                    > > Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?
                    > >
                    > > PMCV
                    > >
                    > >
                    > Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • pmcvflag
                    Mike ... Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of meditation one is talking about, I guess. PMCV
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Mike

                      >>>Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?<<<

                      Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is talking
                      about, I guess.

                      PMCV
                    • pmcvflag
                      Darkchylde ... effect on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the time) was just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and contemplating what was
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Darkchylde

                        >>>My momnet I believe I had of gnosis, which had a transforming
                        effect on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the
                        time) was just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and contemplating
                        what was it was that distinquished life inside matter, the Epinoia
                        (although I didn't actually learn that term till later, I was barely
                        thru the Gospel of Thomas and the Apoch. of John then)I was trying to
                        see the iife in the crude matter and for just a moment, I saw
                        something, hard to describe, but like a light was in the eyes of the
                        cat, and this same light seemed to eminate from the plants in the
                        window, and seemed to even float by in the very air in thin streams,
                        and at that moment I felt an awareness, for lack of a better word, of
                        myself, the cat, the recliner, the room, the outside ground, it went
                        on and on and I was truly connected to everything and everone and I
                        was aware of molecules and stars all at the some moment. Everything
                        seemed an amazing dance of precision and chaos, of dark and light all
                        intwined, and of a supernal light which dimmed the ilght of stars and
                        sun and which existed in ever radiating streams and I craved this
                        light, I think, before I was back in the chair with a cat giving me a
                        weird look.<<<

                        What you are calling "Gnosis" here, I would more generally refer to
                        as a specific type of "mystical experience". There can be no doubt
                        that a form of meditation generally is used to gain this experience,
                        and it is transformative. Gnostic texts do describe visionary
                        experiences like this one as part of the process toward Gnosis.

                        PMCV
                      • imdarkchylde
                        I just felt it to be a moment of gnosis as I didn t just hear about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the ALL, the Unmainifest.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear about
                          from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the
                          ALL, the Unmainifest. It wasn't due to visualization (although I
                          think that to be a usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit
                          it may have been triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I
                          came back with that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left
                          me irrevocably changed. If I had never experienced it, I would
                          probably still believe as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one
                          thing to read about it, contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite
                          another to experience it.
                          You know?
                          LOL
                          Whirled and inner peas
                          DarkChylde


                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Darkchylde
                          >
                          > >>>My momnet I believe I had of gnosis, which had a transforming
                          > effect on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the
                          > time) was just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and
                          contemplating
                          > what was it was that distinquished life inside matter, the Epinoia
                          > (although I didn't actually learn that term till later, I was
                          barely
                          > thru the Gospel of Thomas and the Apoch. of John then)I was trying
                          to
                          > see the iife in the crude matter and for just a moment, I saw
                          > something, hard to describe, but like a light was in the eyes of
                          the
                          > cat, and this same light seemed to eminate from the plants in the
                          > window, and seemed to even float by in the very air in thin
                          streams,
                          > and at that moment I felt an awareness, for lack of a better word,
                          of
                          > myself, the cat, the recliner, the room, the outside ground, it
                          went
                          > on and on and I was truly connected to everything and everone and I
                          > was aware of molecules and stars all at the some moment. Everything
                          > seemed an amazing dance of precision and chaos, of dark and light
                          all
                          > intwined, and of a supernal light which dimmed the ilght of stars
                          and
                          > sun and which existed in ever radiating streams and I craved this
                          > light, I think, before I was back in the chair with a cat giving me
                          a
                          > weird look.<<<
                          >
                          > What you are calling "Gnosis" here, I would more generally refer to
                          > as a specific type of "mystical experience". There can be no doubt
                          > that a form of meditation generally is used to gain this
                          experience,
                          > and it is transformative. Gnostic texts do describe visionary
                          > experiences like this one as part of the process toward Gnosis.
                          >
                          > PMCV
                          >
                        • Michael Leavitt
                          Let s start with the garden variety type, any visualizing type, or....
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Let's start with the garden variety type, any visualizing type, or....

                            pmcvflag wrote:
                            > Mike
                            >
                            >
                            >>>> Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?<<<
                            >>>>
                            >
                            > Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is talking
                            > about, I guess.
                            >
                            > PMCV
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • pmcvflag
                            Mike ... visualizing type, or....
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 14, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Mike

                              >>>Let's start with the garden variety type (of meditation), any
                              visualizing type, or....<<<

                              I DO think that traditional Gnostics had a number of meditation
                              techniques. I am guessing you would agree. I think that many people
                              today kind of think of the psychology/biofeedback kind, or something
                              that is a loose mixing of this with a kind of semi eastern style, when
                              they hear the word "meditation". I think that this is valuable but not
                              likely to have been part of Gnostic practice. Instead, what we
                              generally see both in the texts and in accounts about the Gnostics
                              leans more towards meditation techniques that are more closely
                              connected to ritual initiation, glossolalia, intellectual expansion,
                              and as you mention.... a sort of visualization.

                              Of course, some of this may be dependant on which sect we are talking
                              about, but I think much of this was pretty common to the philosophical
                              Mystery schools of the time.

                              As far as what it has to do with Gnosis? When I read Allogenes, for
                              instance, it seems to me that there is an implied cycle, though I may
                              reading that eisegetically because of my own spiritual inclinations. I
                              see periods of questioning and intellectual revelation offset by a
                              sort of visualization. This would fit in with how these various
                              Hellenist mysteries seemed to view Plato's notion of "Gnosis" as a
                              spiritual function. More explicitely, the attributes I listed some
                              time back that we can find in the texts directly outlining Gnosis
                              certainly demonstrate this multifold definition (and process) as well.
                              Some types of meditation seem to bridge the experience with the
                              cognitive in a way that could very easily be implied by the very
                              definition of the word "Gnosis" in this context.

                              In other words, I would say that some types of meditation were thought
                              to be an important aspect of the process towards Gnosis, just as the
                              mystical experience seems to be.

                              PMCV


                              > >
                              > > Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is
                              talking
                              > > about, I guess.
                              > >
                              > > PMCV
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • pmcvflag
                              Darkchylde ... about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the ALL, the Unmainifest.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 14, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Darkchylde

                                >>>I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear
                                about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to
                                the ALL, the Unmainifest.<<<

                                Ah, I see what you mean. I had thought you were connecting the
                                word "Gnosis" to the experience itself, but if I understand you now
                                you mean to connect it to a sort of realization that contextualized
                                the experience. Is that correct? It may sound like hair splitting, but
                                the destinction could actually be very very important.

                                >>>It wasn't due to visualization (although I think that to be a
                                usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit it may have been
                                triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I came back with
                                that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left me irrevocably
                                changed. If I had never experienced it, I would probably still believe
                                as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one thing to read about it,
                                contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite another to experience it.

                                You know?<<<

                                Yes, I do. You mentioned in a previous post how you may have taken the
                                experience fery differently if you were, say, Catholic. I think that
                                is a very good and important point... and very related to the subject
                                of whether it is technically "Gnosis" or not. Many people who are more
                                influenced by modern esoteric traditions equate the word with the
                                experience itself. It is very often that we hear people say "look, I
                                had this experience so now I have gnosis". In a modern sense of the
                                word that is surely true, but I do find it unfortunate that people
                                feel the need to foist this modern esoteric thinking back on
                                traditional Gnostic thinking in such a way that causes them to misread
                                the Gnostic texts.

                                In the Gnostic texts this word is simply not a single cohesive
                                experiencial instance. I do see how one could read Plato and think
                                that is what he meant ("like a flash of light"), or read the Gnostic
                                texts and believe they are talking about the mystical experience, but
                                I think a closer reading shows this to be inaccurate. I think there is
                                no question that the concept of Gnosis is used to describe more than
                                one aspect of revelation, comprehension, and advancement on the
                                initiatory path of the ancient Gnostics. The salvific effect
                                of "Gnosis" is not generally attributed to a single event so far as I
                                can remember from any of the texts (unless somebody else can think of
                                an example).

                                One could almost wonder if perhaps in modern English rather than
                                claiming to have attained Gnosis, it could be more accurate to talk
                                about various gnosises in a larger concept of Gnosis.... if that makes
                                any sense. Just a thought.

                                PMCV
                              • imdarkchylde
                                Blessings!! Sorry so long in responding. This post got buried in my inbox and I just now found it. Yes, that is exactly what I mean, and I don t think you are
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 20, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Blessings!!
                                  Sorry so long in responding. This post got buried in my inbox and I
                                  just now found it.
                                  Yes, that is exactly what I mean, and I don't think you are splitting
                                  hairs at all. I believe words are specific for us to communicate
                                  with, and that did need to be explained, you just did a better job of
                                  it than I.
                                  But it wasn't just a 'single event' although that moment had the more
                                  dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning
                                  the 'truth' on 'God' and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
                                  relaxed contemplation could be seen as meditation, which culmulated
                                  into an event wherein I was made aware of the ALL, and my connection
                                  to it.
                                  Kinda like in the Hymn of the Pearl, where the real task had been
                                  forgotten and the child and messenger sent to get the pearl had begun
                                  to serve the other king, then recieves a letter from 'home' which
                                  reminded the child of the task at hand and of their real identity.
                                  Reading the texts were like the letter, it reminded me of the truth,
                                  and for a momnet my perspective allowed me to experience the truth.
                                  Without having learned the truth, or being 'reminded of it' I
                                  wouldn't have really understood what I was seeing and the
                                  comprehension brought about by the event would have also been awry.
                                  That was the point I was trying to make, without success I think.LOL
                                  Hope you walk in Light and Love!!
                                  WHirled and inner peas
                                  DarkChylde


                                  Gnothi Seauton
                                  **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**

                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Darkchylde
                                  >
                                  > >>>I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear
                                  > about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had
                                  to
                                  > the ALL, the Unmainifest.<<<
                                  >
                                  > Ah, I see what you mean. I had thought you were connecting the
                                  > word "Gnosis" to the experience itself, but if I understand you now
                                  > you mean to connect it to a sort of realization that contextualized
                                  > the experience. Is that correct? It may sound like hair splitting,
                                  but
                                  > the destinction could actually be very very important.
                                  >
                                  > >>>It wasn't due to visualization (although I think that to be a
                                  > usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit it may have been
                                  > triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I came back with
                                  > that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left me
                                  irrevocably
                                  > changed. If I had never experienced it, I would probably still
                                  believe
                                  > as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one thing to read about it,
                                  > contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite another to experience
                                  it.
                                  >
                                  > You know?<<<
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I do. You mentioned in a previous post how you may have taken
                                  the
                                  > experience fery differently if you were, say, Catholic. I think
                                  that
                                  > is a very good and important point... and very related to the
                                  subject
                                  > of whether it is technically "Gnosis" or not. Many people who are
                                  more
                                  > influenced by modern esoteric traditions equate the word with the
                                  > experience itself. It is very often that we hear people say "look,
                                  I
                                  > had this experience so now I have gnosis". In a modern sense of the
                                  > word that is surely true, but I do find it unfortunate that people
                                  > feel the need to foist this modern esoteric thinking back on
                                  > traditional Gnostic thinking in such a way that causes them to
                                  misread
                                  > the Gnostic texts.
                                  >
                                  > In the Gnostic texts this word is simply not a single cohesive
                                  > experiencial instance. I do see how one could read Plato and think
                                  > that is what he meant ("like a flash of light"), or read the
                                  Gnostic
                                  > texts and believe they are talking about the mystical experience,
                                  but
                                  > I think a closer reading shows this to be inaccurate. I think there
                                  is
                                  > no question that the concept of Gnosis is used to describe more
                                  than
                                  > one aspect of revelation, comprehension, and advancement on the
                                  > initiatory path of the ancient Gnostics. The salvific effect
                                  > of "Gnosis" is not generally attributed to a single event so far as
                                  I
                                  > can remember from any of the texts (unless somebody else can think
                                  of
                                  > an example).
                                  >
                                  > One could almost wonder if perhaps in modern English rather than
                                  > claiming to have attained Gnosis, it could be more accurate to talk
                                  > about various gnosises in a larger concept of Gnosis.... if that
                                  makes
                                  > any sense. Just a thought.
                                  >
                                  > PMCV
                                  >
                                • pmcvflag
                                  Hey Darkchylde ... more dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning the truth on God and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 29, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hey Darkchylde

                                    >>>But it wasn't just a 'single event' although that moment had the
                                    more dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning
                                    the 'truth' on 'God' and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
                                    relaxed contemplation could be seen as meditation, which culmulated
                                    into an event wherein I was made aware of the ALL, and my connection
                                    to it.<<<

                                    AH, yes... a process then. I believe we understand each other on
                                    that one.

                                    >>>Kinda like in the Hymn of the Pearl, where the real task had been
                                    forgotten and the child and messenger sent to get the pearl had begun
                                    to serve the other king, then recieves a letter from 'home' which
                                    reminded the child of the task at hand and of their real identity.
                                    Reading the texts were like the letter, it reminded me of the truth,
                                    and for a momnet my perspective allowed me to experience the truth.
                                    Without having learned the truth, or being 'reminded of it' I
                                    wouldn't have really understood what I was seeing and the
                                    comprehension brought about by the event would have also been awry.
                                    That was the point I was trying to make, without success I think.LOL
                                    Hope you walk in Light and Love!!<<<

                                    It seems to me, then, that the next issue would be about exactly
                                    what kind of cosmology and soteriology that these events and studies
                                    imply to the person in question (in this case you or I).

                                    PMCV
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.