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A Question for the gruop...

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  • imdarkchylde
    Blessings and wingwhispers, all!! Has been quiet on the forum, but perhaps my question will bring some discussion. I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
      Blessings and wingwhispers, all!!
      Has been quiet on the forum, but perhaps my question will bring some
      discussion.
      I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
      adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
      same tree. But my question is this. What exactly is it we are
      to 'know?' Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes
      contridictory texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there
      something more? Why would there be all this learning if we are still
      trapped in our perspectives and do not realize the greater reality
      that exists beyond what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel? What
      marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives (or mind)
      to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal' or 'holy
      grail' that we are to seek?
      If I have opened a can of worms, at least they can crawl free now.
      Be Blessed with Love and Light!!
      Whirled and inner peas
      DarkChylde


      Gnothi Seauton
      **Love thy enemies. It messes with their heads!**
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Darkchylde ... adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the same tree.
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
        Hey Darkchylde

        >>>I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
        adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
        same tree.<<<

        Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch on
        the tree of "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with other
        forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the trees
        of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with other
        groups in those categories as well.

        >>>But my question is this. What exactly is it we are to 'know?'<<<

        Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis". For
        instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis" to
        attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
        to "know" is how to attain those powers.

        In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the historical
        Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
        Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive understanding
        that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
        knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what we
        must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and how we
        as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and where
        we can return).

        >>>Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes contridictory
        texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something more?
        Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in our
        perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists beyond
        what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<

        In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
        understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure material
        reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction between
        a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing that
        goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
        contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
        intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
        salvational "Gnosis".

        I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
        traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am a
        person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to teach
        me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
        contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me some
        ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness and
        evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely work on
        my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously understood.
        Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that includes
        several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have to do
        with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the two
        methods you are using to teach me.

        As Plato said...

        "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
        words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued intercourse
        between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly,
        like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the
        soul and straightway nourishes itself."

        >>>What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives
        (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
        or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<

        Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the light
        flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse it
        with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the traditional
        meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a process
        that gives an entire perspective.

        In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know
        then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis". At
        the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of those
        dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening, while
        the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis) must
        have both the event and the context.

        Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability to
        ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete understanding
        of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where that
        bike will take you.

        Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?

        PMCV
      • Scott Hutton
        What pray is a gruop ?All this verbiage about gnosticisms...pourquoi tous ces mots?  (English, obviously, ain t cuttin it).It s knowing,  a sudden
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006

          What pray is a "gruop"?

          All this verbiage about gnosticisms...pourquoi tous ces mots?� (English, obviously, ain't cuttin' it).

          It's knowing,� a sudden knowning.� As in Bam!� Flash!

          At the risk of being dismissed from this list, I say:� Pay attention!

          Stop talking about.

          Listen.

          Stop postponing your enlightenment.� Stop putting off your sudden knowing.

          The postponement merely drags out frustration.� And trust an old man:� postponement has nothing to do with gnosticism.

          Listen!

          Listen!� Not to me, but to That!

          Scott




          --- On Thu 11/09, pmcvflag < no_reply@yahoogroups.com > wrote:
          From: pmcvflag [mailto: no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
          To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 01:19:49 -0000
          Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: A Question for the gruop...














          Hey Darkchylde

          >>>I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
          adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
          same tree.<<<

          Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch on
          the tree of "Esotericism" , and as such has things in common with other
          forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the trees
          of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with other
          groups in those categories as well.

          >>>But my question is this. What exactly is it we are to 'know?'<<<

          Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis". For
          instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis" to
          attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
          to "know" is how to attain those powers.

          In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the historical
          Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
          Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive understanding
          that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
          knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what we
          must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and how we
          as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and where
          we can return).

          >>>Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes contridictory
          texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something more?
          Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in our
          perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists beyond
          what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<

          In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
          understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure material
          reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction between
          a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing that
          goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
          contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
          intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
          salvational "Gnosis".

          I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
          traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am a
          person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to teach
          me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
          contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me some
          ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness and
          evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely work on
          my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously understood.
          Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that includes
          several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have to do
          with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the two
          methods you are using to teach me.

          As Plato said...

          "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
          words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued intercourse
          between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly,
          like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the
          soul and straightway nourishes itself."

          >>>What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives
          (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
          or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<

          Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the light
          flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse it
          with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the traditional
          meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a process
          that gives an entire perspective.

          In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know
          then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis". At
          the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of those
          dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening, while
          the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis) must
          have both the event and the context.

          Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability to
          ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete understanding
          of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where that
          bike will take you.

          Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?

          PMCV










          No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
          Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

        • imdarkchylde
          Blessings!! Now this was one thing I could sink my teeth in, so to speak. Yum!LOL Just want to clarify one thing. (I know, *groan*) A similar analogy would be
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
            Blessings!!
            Now this was one thing I could sink my teeth in, so to speak. Yum!LOL
            Just want to clarify one thing. (I know, *groan*)
            A similar analogy would be describing red to a person born blind. I
            can describe the color and its effect and everything most
            loquaciously (love that word, have so little chance to use it in
            conversation) but how can a blind person know what red is until
            he/she sees it for themselves? To me any discussion of 'gnosis'
            would be similar. I believe you are correct in the fact it is not
            one aspect to conquer in order to achieve gnosis, but many. A
            teacher can show the student the door but the student must pass thru
            for themselves. I do believe that someone that has aquired gnosis,
            if they have truly had it, it will change them irrevocably. It did
            me. But it was a combination of being exposed to new ideas, having a
            mind open to that experience, and accepting the experience when it
            came, and it changed my life. It was a combination of things, like
            you said about the bike. I learned how a bike is made, how it works,
            and then I learned to ride. Learning to ride alone would not have
            made the experience complete, learning to make the bike and how it
            works would not have make the experience complete. But the
            combination of the elements would make me a biker. Snicker. I was
            blind, and had red dscribed to me. I hungered for more than a
            description, I wanted to know, to experience red. Now I can see.
            I think many are frustrated as they get the descriptions, they get
            the idea- they get it here (touch the corner of the crainum) but they
            don't feel it here (touch the heart.) It has to be the entire
            experience. Mind, understanding; body, feeling; spirit,
            transformation. Am I in the ballpark at least? Or am I just parking
            cars?LOL
            Hope you are Blessed!
            Whirled and inner peas
            DarkChylde


            Gnothi Seauton

            **Love thy enemies. It messes with their heads!**



            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey Darkchylde
            >
            > >>>I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
            > adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
            > same tree.<<<
            >
            > Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch
            on
            > the tree of "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with
            other
            > forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the
            trees
            > of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with
            other
            > groups in those categories as well.
            >
            > >>>But my question is this. What exactly is it we are to 'know?'<<<
            >
            > Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis".
            For
            > instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis" to
            > attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
            > to "know" is how to attain those powers.
            >
            > In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the historical
            > Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
            > Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive understanding
            > that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
            > knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what
            we
            > must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and how
            we
            > as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and
            where
            > we can return).
            >
            > >>>Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes
            contridictory
            > texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something more?
            > Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in our
            > perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists
            beyond
            > what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<
            >
            > In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
            > understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure
            material
            > reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction
            between
            > a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing
            that
            > goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
            > contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
            > intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
            > salvational "Gnosis".
            >
            > I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
            > traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am a
            > person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to
            teach
            > me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
            > contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me
            some
            > ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness and
            > evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely work
            on
            > my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously understood.
            > Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that
            includes
            > several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have to
            do
            > with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the
            two
            > methods you are using to teach me.
            >
            > As Plato said...
            >
            > "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
            > words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued
            intercourse
            > between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject,
            suddenly,
            > like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the
            > soul and straightway nourishes itself."
            >
            > >>>What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives
            > (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
            > or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<
            >
            > Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the
            light
            > flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse it
            > with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the traditional
            > meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a
            process
            > that gives an entire perspective.
            >
            > In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know
            > then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis".
            At
            > the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of
            those
            > dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening,
            while
            > the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis)
            must
            > have both the event and the context.
            >
            > Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability to
            > ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete
            understanding
            > of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where
            that
            > bike will take you.
            >
            > Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?
            >
            > PMCV
            >
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Scott You state.... ... *lol* Well, a gruop appears to be a typo for group ... as in this forum (the gathering of people posting on the message board
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
              Hey Scott

              You state....

              >>>What pray is a "gruop"?<<<

              *lol* Well, a "gruop" appears to be a typo for "group"... as in this
              forum (the gathering of people posting on the message board that you
              are now presenting your own ideas on)

              >>>Stop postponing your enlightenment. Stop putting off your sudden
              knowing.<<<

              In order to give such advice you would have to assume that the
              person you are talking to has indeed put it off or not attained it.
              That would be rather presumptuous.

              In any event, "Gnosis" in the traditional sense isn't the same thing
              as "enlightenment" in the modern sense. What we are talking about
              isn't necessarily identical. With that in mind, can you clarify for
              us whether you feel your notion of "Gnosis" is the same as that
              presented in the traditional Gnostic texts? It could be important
              considering the fact that you are talking to a group that uses a
              very specific lingo.

              >>>Stop talking about.<<<

              This is a forum. That means by definition we are here to talk. You,
              in fact, just talked about it as well.

              PMCV
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Darkchylde ... LOL Just want to clarify one thing. (I know, *groan*)
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 9, 2006
                Hey Darkchylde

                >>>Now this was one thing I could sink my teeth in, so to speak. Yum!
                LOL Just want to clarify one thing. (I know, *groan*)<<<

                Glad I was understandable *lol*. I am always unsure if I am actually
                making sense. Anyway, no groans here... it is part of what we are
                here to talk about, after all.

                >>>A similar analogy would be describing red to a person born blind.
                I can describe the color and its effect and everything most
                loquaciously (love that word, have so little chance to use it in
                conversation) but how can a blind person know what red is until
                he/she sees it for themselves? To me any discussion of 'gnosis'
                would be similar.<<<

                I think in one sense your analogy is very apropos. I wonder, though,
                if it could confuse some people into thinking "Gnosis" is an
                experience the way seeing a color is. Still, I can't think of a
                better example off the top of my head. I think perhaps just to
                clarify we could simply add that the person who sees the red without
                thinking about it has no more "Gnosis" of red than the person who
                can describe it without seeing it. Both have only one side of the
                understanding.

                I think many people would rhetorically ask "well, isn't it the
                seeing of the red that is the important part, the final goal?" I
                think that when looking at the Gnostic perspective the answer to
                that question is, no. A computer scanner can detect red vs black
                without any cognitive effect. An animal can experience red without
                comprehending that the experience has some meaning beyond the simple
                fact of being red (why is the stop sign red? does the redness of
                some flowers have a function? why should Roxanne not "put on the red
                light"? how did "red" come to be seperate from "white" in the first
                place? Is there value to viewing colors beyond greyscale?)

                >>>I believe you are correct in the fact it is not one aspect to
                conquer in order to achieve gnosis, but many. A teacher can show the
                student the door but the student must pass thru for themselves. I do
                believe that someone that has aquired gnosis, if they have truly had
                it, it will change them irrevocably.<<<

                I think nobody would quibble with you on that point.

                >>>It did me. But it was a combination of being exposed to new
                ideas, having a mind open to that experience, and accepting the
                experience when it came, and it changed my life. It was a
                combination of things, like you said about the bike. I learned how a
                bike is made, how it works, and then I learned to ride. Learning to
                ride alone would not have made the experience complete, learning to
                make the bike and how it works would not have make the experience
                complete. But the combination of the elements would make me a biker.
                Snicker. I was blind, and had red dscribed to me. I hungered for
                more than a description, I wanted to know, to experience red. Now I
                can see.<<<

                Some would say that perhaps another step in understanding red would
                be to form a common conceptualization with others. As Isidore of
                Seville said "Who knoweth not the names, knoweth not the subject".

                >>>I think many are frustrated as they get the descriptions, they
                get the idea- they get it here (touch the corner of the crainum) but
                they don't feel it here (touch the heart.) It has to be the entire
                experience. Mind, understanding; body, feeling; spirit,
                transformation. Am I in the ballpark at least? Or am I just parking
                cars?LOL<<<

                Sounds right to me. As you state, it goes both ways. Just as people
                sometimes get it in the head, but not the heart... there are many
                who get it in the heart but don't quite get it in the head yet.
                Either direction fails to be Gnosis.

                In fact, that does kind of help give perspective to the function of
                this forum. There are some 300 groups in the "Gnosticism" section of
                Yahoo Groups that deal with the heart side so we figured perhaps we
                could fill the gap on the head side *lol*. Well, just joking...
                partly.

                Seriously though, to be more technical; if one doesn't know about
                the Demiurge, the fine points of the difference between the
                apophatic infinity vs the kind of infinity presented by the "second
                Father", the meaning of the fall of Sophia, the function of
                intellect as it is presented, say, in Allogenes... then one has not
                attained "Gnosis", by definition of the word.

                What I am saying then, and I think you are as well, is that in
                traditional Gnostic thinking the experience and the context simply
                cannot be removed from each other and still constitute "Gnosis".
                That is why we cannot be so quick to discard or discount those moldy
                old texts. ;)

                PMCV
              • imdarkchylde
                Blessings, Scott!! Yeah, my fingers get dyslexic from time to time, and I don t always proofread. My spelling ain t so hot either!LOL I don t remember reading
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
                  Blessings, Scott!!
                  Yeah, my fingers get dyslexic from time to time, and I don't always
                  proofread. My spelling ain't so hot either!LOL
                  I don't remember reading anything that you have posted in English, so
                  why do you think English isn't cutting it? Perhaps Hebrew would? Or
                  Greek? I know, Martian!LOL
                  I agree with you that a moment of Gnosis is Bam. But without prior
                  understanding of what is happening, which would come from an
                  understanding and study from the gnostic teachers, one wouldn't
                  really understand what is happening to them in the first place.
                  I really don't think I would have had my moment of Gnosis had I not
                  started studying Gnosticism to begin with. When I was a little girl
                  and growing up in the original Southern Bible-thumper family, a Bam
                  moment would have done me little good, or I would have misinterpreted
                  it as coming from what I thought was God but it was really only the
                  demiuge. Same thing for when I was a witch. I had 'psychic'
                  experiences (fire scrying and the like) but that is not what I am
                  talking about when I am talking about a moment of gnosis. I believe
                  when it hits you, it is like a strike of lightning. But just as
                  certain environmental conditions must be met for lightning to appear,
                  then conditions for gnosis must come the same way. I personally feel
                  it is a mixture of having an open mind (and that isn't as easy as it
                  sounds, I know MANY people who THINK their mind is open, but when you
                  speak or discuss something with them they are sooo busy being 'right'
                  they aren't open), study and meditation/contemplation on those things
                  learned.
                  That is how it happened with me. And believe me, I AM LISTENING.
                  Always. Waiting for another lightning strike, or the little moments
                  I have epiphanies, which I consider to be a vehicle to gnosis, but
                  not the only vehicle.
                  Are YOU listening?
                  BTW, my knowledge of French is limited to some profanity, so what,
                  pray tell, is pourquoi tous ces mots?
                  Whirled and inner peas
                  DarkChylde

                  Gnothi Seauton
                  **Love thy enemies. It messes with their head!*

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Hutton"<hmshutton@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > What pray is a "gruop"?All this verbiage about
                  gnosticisms...pourquoi tous ces mots?  (English, obviously, ain't
                  cuttin' it).It's knowing,  a sudden knowning.  As in Bam!  Flash!At
                  the risk of being dismissed from this list, I say:  Pay attention!
                  Stop talking about.Listen.Stop postponing your enlightenment.  Stop
                  putting off your sudden knowing.The postponement merely drags out
                  frustration.  And trust an old man:  postponement has nothing to do
                  with gnosticism.Listen!Listen!  Not to me, but to That!Scott --- On
                  Thu 11/09, pmcvflag < no_reply@yahoogroups.com > wrote:From:
                  pmcvflag [mailto: no_reply@yahoogroups.com]To: gnosticism2@...: Fri,
                  10 Nov 2006 01:19:49 -0000Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: A Question for
                  the gruop... Hey Darkchylde>>>I think the
                  definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessedadequately enough
                  to show that many have differing branches of thesame
                  tree.<<<Yes, I think most of us would agree
                  > that "Gnosticism" is a branch on the tree of
                  "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with other
                  forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the trees
                  of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see
                  similarities with other groups in those categories as
                  well.>>>But my question is this. What exactly is it we are
                  to 'know?'<<<Of course that question would depend on who's
                  notion of "gnosis". For instance, many New Age groups seem
                  to connect the term "gnosis" to attaining some kind of
                  psychic powers... so what it is they are to "know" is how
                  to attain those powers.In my perspective, when we bring that focus
                  down to the historical Gnostics the subject gains a more specific
                  meaning. According to Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and
                  comprehensive understanding that includes very specific cosmological
                  knowledge, personal knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More
                  > specifically, what we must know is who we are within a wider
                  spiritual cosmology, and how we as individuals relate to that
                  cosmology (where we are from, and where we can return).
                  >>>Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes
                  contridictory texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there
                  something more? Why would there be all this learning if we are still
                  trapped in our perspectives and do not realize the greater reality
                  that exists beyond what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?
                  <<<In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is
                  the act of understanding itself that frees one from the confines of
                  pure material reactonary perspective. This is very much like the
                  destinction between a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that
                  it is a knowing that goes beyond direct perception. The understaning
                  in question must contain both the experience based form of knowledge
                  AND the intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
                  salvational
                  > "Gnosis".I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I
                  were part of a traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now
                  since I am a person who is not familiar with the "mystery"
                  you are going to teach me, you would have to start by helping me
                  understand HOW to contextualize things correctly for the system. You
                  might give me some ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen
                  my awareness and evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you
                  would likely work on my ability to conceptualize things I had not
                  previously understood. Eventually I will have to come to understand a
                  cosmology that includes several very complicated notions of infinity,
                  and what they have to do with me. I will have to gain that
                  understanding by connecting the two methods you are using to teach
                  me.As Plato said..."This knowledge is not something that can be
                  learned only through words like other sciences; but rather after long-
                  continued intercourse between teacher and
                  > pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly, like light
                  flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the soul and
                  straightway nourishes itself.">>>What marks a moment
                  of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives (or mind) to transend
                  reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal' or 'holy grail' that we are
                  to seek?<<<Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough
                  presenting it (the light flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be
                  careful not to confuse it with the moment of mystical experience.
                  Gnosis, in the traditional meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is
                  the attainment of a process that gives an entire perspective.In other
                  words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know then if I
                  have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis". At
                  the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of those
                  dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening, while
                  the other is just a context. A true full
                  > comprehension (gnosis) must have both the event and the
                  context.Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the
                  ability to ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete
                  understanding of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and
                  finally where that bike will take you.Anyone here disagree or have
                  thoughts?PMCV
                  >
                  > _______________________________________________
                  > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
                  > Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
                  >
                • pmcvflag
                  Hey Darkchylde ... Scott is not listening. Guess he didn t like us *lol*. Que Seurat, Seurat. PMCV
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
                    Hey Darkchylde

                    >>>Blessings, Scott!! .....Are YOU listening?<<<<

                    Scott is not listening. Guess he didn't like us *lol*. Que Seurat,
                    Seurat.

                    PMCV
                  • Michael Leavitt
                    ... Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
                      pmcvflag wrote:
                      > Hey Darkchylde
                      >
                      >
                      >>>> I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
                      >>>>
                      > adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
                      > same tree.<<<
                      >
                      > Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch on
                      > the tree of "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with other
                      > forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the trees
                      > of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with other
                      > groups in those categories as well.
                      >
                      >
                      >>>> But my question is this. What exactly is it we are to 'know?'<<<
                      >>>>
                      >
                      > Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis". For
                      > instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis" to
                      > attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
                      > to "know" is how to attain those powers.
                      >
                      > In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the historical
                      > Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
                      > Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive understanding
                      > that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
                      > knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what we
                      > must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and how we
                      > as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and where
                      > we can return).
                      >
                      >
                      >>>> Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes contridictory
                      >>>>
                      > texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something more?
                      > Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in our
                      > perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists beyond
                      > what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<
                      >
                      > In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
                      > understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure material
                      > reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction between
                      > a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing that
                      > goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
                      > contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
                      > intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
                      > salvational "Gnosis".
                      >
                      > I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
                      > traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am a
                      > person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to teach
                      > me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
                      > contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me some
                      > ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness and
                      > evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely work on
                      > my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously understood.
                      > Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that includes
                      > several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have to do
                      > with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the two
                      > methods you are using to teach me.
                      >
                      > As Plato said...
                      >
                      > "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
                      > words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued intercourse
                      > between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly,
                      > like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the
                      > soul and straightway nourishes itself."
                      >
                      >
                      >>>> What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our perspectives
                      >>>>
                      > (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
                      > or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<
                      >
                      > Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the light
                      > flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse it
                      > with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the traditional
                      > meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a process
                      > that gives an entire perspective.
                      >
                      > In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to know
                      > then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't have "Gnosis". At
                      > the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of those
                      > dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening, while
                      > the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis) must
                      > have both the event and the context.
                      >
                      > Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability to
                      > ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete understanding
                      > of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where that
                      > bike will take you.
                      >
                      > Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?
                      >
                      > PMCV
                      >
                      >
                      Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?
                      >
                      >
                    • imdarkchylde
                      Sure hope I didn t offend. Sagitarrians are not known for tact and diplomacy. (Been told all us centaurs must be born in a barn.LOL) I m going to have to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
                        Sure hope I didn't offend. Sagitarrians are not known for tact and
                        diplomacy. (Been told all us centaurs must be born in a barn.LOL)
                        I'm going to have to brush up on my French, too at this rate!LOL
                        Whirled and inner peas
                        DarkChylde


                        Gnothi Seauton

                        **Love thy enemies. It messes with their heads!**

                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hey Darkchylde
                        >
                        > >>>Blessings, Scott!! .....Are YOU listening?<<<<
                        >
                        > Scott is not listening. Guess he didn't like us *lol*. Que Seurat,
                        > Seurat.
                        >
                        > PMCV
                        >
                      • imdarkchylde
                        Most excellent question! I kinda brushed on contemplation with understanding and study, but I think if would be helpful if not necessary to have a foundation
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 10, 2006
                          Most excellent question!
                          I kinda brushed on contemplation with understanding and study, but I
                          think if would be helpful if not necessary to have a foundation in
                          some sort of gnostic thought, freeing the perspective to experience
                          it as a focused event.
                          I know this forum operates in a historical venure, but the only way
                          to express a view on meditation and gnosis is to relate some personal
                          experiences. Hope I don't offend!! LOL
                          I used to mediate when I was into Keltic Shamanism and when I was
                          fire-scrying I had and OBE (out of body experience) but I panicked
                          and was instantly 'back'. It was there, it was real, and it came by
                          meditaion and study but it wasn't gnosis. I didn't experience the
                          whole floating or seeing my body thing, but my consciousness was
                          instantly transported to a place of complete and utter blackness - no
                          stars or anything. I was terrified (I have since heard this was
                          described as the 'terror threshold' and I was more of a chicken than
                          I thought LOL) and have hesitated to open myself up to that again, as
                          I 'returned' in a sweat and panting. I had experienced another
                          realitiy, but without focus or direction or anything it only showed
                          me there is realities other than the physical one now. I now
                          understand I had discovered the tzimtzum, the original constriction
                          of the Light of the Unmainfest. "When I formed the light I created
                          the Darkness" it says in Isaiah.
                          My momnet I believe I had of gnosis, which had a transforming effect
                          on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the time) was
                          just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and contemplating what was
                          it was that distinquished life inside matter, the Epinoia (although I
                          didn't actually learn that term till later, I was barely thru the
                          Gospel of Thomas and the Apoch. of John then)I was trying to see the
                          iife in the crude matter and for just a moment, I saw something, hard
                          to describe, but like a light was in the eyes of the cat, and this
                          same light seemed to eminate from the plants in the window, and
                          seemed to even float by in the very air in thin streams, and at that
                          moment I felt an awareness, for lack of a better word, of myself, the
                          cat, the recliner, the room, the outside ground, it went on and on
                          and I was truly connected to everything and everone and I was aware
                          of molecules and stars all at the some moment. Everything seemed an
                          amazing dance of precision and chaos, of dark and light all intwined,
                          and of a supernal light which dimmed the ilght of stars and sun and
                          which existed in ever radiating streams and I craved this light, I
                          think, before I was back in the chair with a cat giving me a weird
                          look. That I feel went past psychic, and I truly changed and found
                          the path I now have which brings me this light in small doses.
                          Sometimes I think I would rather try to recreate that experience
                          rather than OBEs which terrified me.
                          Meditation was key in both but one was frightening and didn't change
                          my life, as it was unfocused and I was still 'in the dark', but the
                          other was connectied to something wonderful and full of light. I
                          experienced it and it was awakening. I know it, it isn't a belief,
                          faith or acid flashback (LOL) but a reality just as real or more than
                          the one I experience as I type on this keyboard. Both had left me
                          with a feeling of being really awake for the first time, like water
                          splashed in your face when your drowsing.
                          So shove me in the shallow water before I get too deep!LOL
                          Be Blessed!!
                          Whirled and inner peas
                          DarkChylde



                          Gnothi Seauton

                          **Love thy enemies. It messes with their heads!**


                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > pmcvflag wrote:
                          > > Hey Darkchylde
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>> I think the definition of gnosis and gnostic have been expessed
                          > >>>>
                          > > adequately enough to show that many have differing branches of the
                          > > same tree.<<<
                          > >
                          > > Yes, I think most of us would agree that "Gnosticism" is a branch
                          on
                          > > the tree of "Esotericism", and as such has things in common with
                          other
                          > > forms of mystical or esoteric thought. Also, as a branch on the
                          trees
                          > > of "Hellenism" and "Middle Platonism" we see similarities with
                          other
                          > > groups in those categories as well.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>> But my question is this. What exactly is it we are
                          to 'know?'<<<
                          > >>>>
                          > >
                          > > Of course that question would depend on who's notion of "gnosis".
                          For
                          > > instance, many New Age groups seem to connect the term "gnosis"
                          to
                          > > attaining some kind of psychic powers... so what it is they are
                          > > to "know" is how to attain those powers.
                          > >
                          > > In my perspective, when we bring that focus down to the
                          historical
                          > > Gnostics the subject gains a more specific meaning. According to
                          > > Gnostic texts Gnosis is a multifold and comprehensive
                          understanding
                          > > that includes very specific cosmological knowledge, personal
                          > > knowledge, and hermeneutic understanding. More specifically, what
                          we
                          > > must know is who we are within a wider spiritual cosmology, and
                          how we
                          > > as individuals relate to that cosmology (where we are from, and
                          where
                          > > we can return).
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>> Is it the dusty ramblings in the many and sometimes
                          contridictory
                          > >>>>
                          > > texts? Is it mythologies and analogies? Or is there something
                          more?
                          > > Why would there be all this learning if we are still trapped in
                          our
                          > > perspectives and do not realize the greater reality that exists
                          beyond
                          > > what we see, hear, taste, smell and feel?<<<
                          > >
                          > > In traditional "dusty" Gnostic thinking, it is the act of
                          > > understanding itself that frees one from the confines of pure
                          material
                          > > reactonary perspective. This is very much like the destinction
                          between
                          > > a priori knowing vs a posteriori knowing in that it is a knowing
                          that
                          > > goes beyond direct perception. The understaning in question must
                          > > contain both the experience based form of knowledge AND the
                          > > intellectual breakthrough in order to truly BE this
                          > > salvational "Gnosis".
                          > >
                          > > I can put that more simply. Imagine you and I were part of a
                          > > traditional Gnostic sect, and you were my teacher. Now since I am
                          a
                          > > person who is not familiar with the "mystery" you are going to
                          teach
                          > > me, you would have to start by helping me understand HOW to
                          > > contextualize things correctly for the system. You might give me
                          some
                          > > ritual activities, or meditations, meant to widen my awareness
                          and
                          > > evoke spiritual experiences. At the same time you would likely
                          work on
                          > > my ability to conceptualize things I had not previously
                          understood.
                          > > Eventually I will have to come to understand a cosmology that
                          includes
                          > > several very complicated notions of infinity, and what they have
                          to do
                          > > with me. I will have to gain that understanding by connecting the
                          two
                          > > methods you are using to teach me.
                          > >
                          > > As Plato said...
                          > >
                          > > "This knowledge is not something that can be learned only through
                          > > words like other sciences; but rather after long-continued
                          intercourse
                          > > between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject,
                          suddenly,
                          > > like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in
                          the
                          > > soul and straightway nourishes itself."
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>>> What marks a moment of 'gnosis', is it to allow our
                          perspectives
                          > >>>>
                          > > (or mind) to transend reality as we know it? Is this the 'goal'
                          > > or 'holy grail' that we are to seek?<<<
                          > >
                          > > Although Gnosis has moments of breakthrough presenting it (the
                          light
                          > > flashing forth), epiphanies, we should be careful not to confuse
                          it
                          > > with the moment of mystical experience. Gnosis, in the
                          traditional
                          > > meaning, isn't an event or a moment, it is the attainment of a
                          process
                          > > that gives an entire perspective.
                          > >
                          > > In other words, once you have taught me what I am supposed to
                          know
                          > > then if I have not had spiritual experience I don't
                          have "Gnosis". At
                          > > the same time, if I don't have understanding of the meaning of
                          those
                          > > dusty texts I ALSO don't have Gnosis. One is just a happening,
                          while
                          > > the other is just a context. A true full comprehension (gnosis)
                          must
                          > > have both the event and the context.
                          > >
                          > > Knowing how to build the bike is not Gnosis. Having the ability
                          to
                          > > ride the bike is not Gnosis either. Gnosis is a complete
                          understanding
                          > > of the bike... how to make it, how to ride it, and finally where
                          that
                          > > bike will take you.
                          > >
                          > > Anyone here disagree or have thoughts?
                          > >
                          > > PMCV
                          > >
                          > >
                          > Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • pmcvflag
                          Mike ... Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of meditation one is talking about, I guess. PMCV
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                            Mike

                            >>>Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?<<<

                            Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is talking
                            about, I guess.

                            PMCV
                          • pmcvflag
                            Darkchylde ... effect on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the time) was just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and contemplating what was
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                              Darkchylde

                              >>>My momnet I believe I had of gnosis, which had a transforming
                              effect on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the
                              time) was just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and contemplating
                              what was it was that distinquished life inside matter, the Epinoia
                              (although I didn't actually learn that term till later, I was barely
                              thru the Gospel of Thomas and the Apoch. of John then)I was trying to
                              see the iife in the crude matter and for just a moment, I saw
                              something, hard to describe, but like a light was in the eyes of the
                              cat, and this same light seemed to eminate from the plants in the
                              window, and seemed to even float by in the very air in thin streams,
                              and at that moment I felt an awareness, for lack of a better word, of
                              myself, the cat, the recliner, the room, the outside ground, it went
                              on and on and I was truly connected to everything and everone and I
                              was aware of molecules and stars all at the some moment. Everything
                              seemed an amazing dance of precision and chaos, of dark and light all
                              intwined, and of a supernal light which dimmed the ilght of stars and
                              sun and which existed in ever radiating streams and I craved this
                              light, I think, before I was back in the chair with a cat giving me a
                              weird look.<<<

                              What you are calling "Gnosis" here, I would more generally refer to
                              as a specific type of "mystical experience". There can be no doubt
                              that a form of meditation generally is used to gain this experience,
                              and it is transformative. Gnostic texts do describe visionary
                              experiences like this one as part of the process toward Gnosis.

                              PMCV
                            • imdarkchylde
                              I just felt it to be a moment of gnosis as I didn t just hear about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the ALL, the Unmainifest.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                                I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear about
                                from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the
                                ALL, the Unmainifest. It wasn't due to visualization (although I
                                think that to be a usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit
                                it may have been triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I
                                came back with that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left
                                me irrevocably changed. If I had never experienced it, I would
                                probably still believe as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one
                                thing to read about it, contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite
                                another to experience it.
                                You know?
                                LOL
                                Whirled and inner peas
                                DarkChylde


                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Darkchylde
                                >
                                > >>>My momnet I believe I had of gnosis, which had a transforming
                                > effect on my life (which was in a serious downward spiral at the
                                > time) was just a time sitting with a cat on my lap and
                                contemplating
                                > what was it was that distinquished life inside matter, the Epinoia
                                > (although I didn't actually learn that term till later, I was
                                barely
                                > thru the Gospel of Thomas and the Apoch. of John then)I was trying
                                to
                                > see the iife in the crude matter and for just a moment, I saw
                                > something, hard to describe, but like a light was in the eyes of
                                the
                                > cat, and this same light seemed to eminate from the plants in the
                                > window, and seemed to even float by in the very air in thin
                                streams,
                                > and at that moment I felt an awareness, for lack of a better word,
                                of
                                > myself, the cat, the recliner, the room, the outside ground, it
                                went
                                > on and on and I was truly connected to everything and everone and I
                                > was aware of molecules and stars all at the some moment. Everything
                                > seemed an amazing dance of precision and chaos, of dark and light
                                all
                                > intwined, and of a supernal light which dimmed the ilght of stars
                                and
                                > sun and which existed in ever radiating streams and I craved this
                                > light, I think, before I was back in the chair with a cat giving me
                                a
                                > weird look.<<<
                                >
                                > What you are calling "Gnosis" here, I would more generally refer to
                                > as a specific type of "mystical experience". There can be no doubt
                                > that a form of meditation generally is used to gain this
                                experience,
                                > and it is transformative. Gnostic texts do describe visionary
                                > experiences like this one as part of the process toward Gnosis.
                                >
                                > PMCV
                                >
                              • Michael Leavitt
                                Let s start with the garden variety type, any visualizing type, or....
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 13, 2006
                                  Let's start with the garden variety type, any visualizing type, or....

                                  pmcvflag wrote:
                                  > Mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>>> Neither, but what role does meditation have in all this?<<<
                                  >>>>
                                  >
                                  > Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is talking
                                  > about, I guess.
                                  >
                                  > PMCV
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • pmcvflag
                                  Mike ... visualizing type, or....
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 14, 2006
                                    Mike

                                    >>>Let's start with the garden variety type (of meditation), any
                                    visualizing type, or....<<<

                                    I DO think that traditional Gnostics had a number of meditation
                                    techniques. I am guessing you would agree. I think that many people
                                    today kind of think of the psychology/biofeedback kind, or something
                                    that is a loose mixing of this with a kind of semi eastern style, when
                                    they hear the word "meditation". I think that this is valuable but not
                                    likely to have been part of Gnostic practice. Instead, what we
                                    generally see both in the texts and in accounts about the Gnostics
                                    leans more towards meditation techniques that are more closely
                                    connected to ritual initiation, glossolalia, intellectual expansion,
                                    and as you mention.... a sort of visualization.

                                    Of course, some of this may be dependant on which sect we are talking
                                    about, but I think much of this was pretty common to the philosophical
                                    Mystery schools of the time.

                                    As far as what it has to do with Gnosis? When I read Allogenes, for
                                    instance, it seems to me that there is an implied cycle, though I may
                                    reading that eisegetically because of my own spiritual inclinations. I
                                    see periods of questioning and intellectual revelation offset by a
                                    sort of visualization. This would fit in with how these various
                                    Hellenist mysteries seemed to view Plato's notion of "Gnosis" as a
                                    spiritual function. More explicitely, the attributes I listed some
                                    time back that we can find in the texts directly outlining Gnosis
                                    certainly demonstrate this multifold definition (and process) as well.
                                    Some types of meditation seem to bridge the experience with the
                                    cognitive in a way that could very easily be implied by the very
                                    definition of the word "Gnosis" in this context.

                                    In other words, I would say that some types of meditation were thought
                                    to be an important aspect of the process towards Gnosis, just as the
                                    mystical experience seems to be.

                                    PMCV


                                    > >
                                    > > Hmmmm. That could depend on what kind of "meditation" one is
                                    talking
                                    > > about, I guess.
                                    > >
                                    > > PMCV
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • pmcvflag
                                    Darkchylde ... about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to the ALL, the Unmainifest.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 14, 2006
                                      Darkchylde

                                      >>>I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear
                                      about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had to
                                      the ALL, the Unmainifest.<<<

                                      Ah, I see what you mean. I had thought you were connecting the
                                      word "Gnosis" to the experience itself, but if I understand you now
                                      you mean to connect it to a sort of realization that contextualized
                                      the experience. Is that correct? It may sound like hair splitting, but
                                      the destinction could actually be very very important.

                                      >>>It wasn't due to visualization (although I think that to be a
                                      usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit it may have been
                                      triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I came back with
                                      that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left me irrevocably
                                      changed. If I had never experienced it, I would probably still believe
                                      as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one thing to read about it,
                                      contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite another to experience it.

                                      You know?<<<

                                      Yes, I do. You mentioned in a previous post how you may have taken the
                                      experience fery differently if you were, say, Catholic. I think that
                                      is a very good and important point... and very related to the subject
                                      of whether it is technically "Gnosis" or not. Many people who are more
                                      influenced by modern esoteric traditions equate the word with the
                                      experience itself. It is very often that we hear people say "look, I
                                      had this experience so now I have gnosis". In a modern sense of the
                                      word that is surely true, but I do find it unfortunate that people
                                      feel the need to foist this modern esoteric thinking back on
                                      traditional Gnostic thinking in such a way that causes them to misread
                                      the Gnostic texts.

                                      In the Gnostic texts this word is simply not a single cohesive
                                      experiencial instance. I do see how one could read Plato and think
                                      that is what he meant ("like a flash of light"), or read the Gnostic
                                      texts and believe they are talking about the mystical experience, but
                                      I think a closer reading shows this to be inaccurate. I think there is
                                      no question that the concept of Gnosis is used to describe more than
                                      one aspect of revelation, comprehension, and advancement on the
                                      initiatory path of the ancient Gnostics. The salvific effect
                                      of "Gnosis" is not generally attributed to a single event so far as I
                                      can remember from any of the texts (unless somebody else can think of
                                      an example).

                                      One could almost wonder if perhaps in modern English rather than
                                      claiming to have attained Gnosis, it could be more accurate to talk
                                      about various gnosises in a larger concept of Gnosis.... if that makes
                                      any sense. Just a thought.

                                      PMCV
                                    • imdarkchylde
                                      Blessings!! Sorry so long in responding. This post got buried in my inbox and I just now found it. Yes, that is exactly what I mean, and I don t think you are
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 20, 2006
                                        Blessings!!
                                        Sorry so long in responding. This post got buried in my inbox and I
                                        just now found it.
                                        Yes, that is exactly what I mean, and I don't think you are splitting
                                        hairs at all. I believe words are specific for us to communicate
                                        with, and that did need to be explained, you just did a better job of
                                        it than I.
                                        But it wasn't just a 'single event' although that moment had the more
                                        dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning
                                        the 'truth' on 'God' and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
                                        relaxed contemplation could be seen as meditation, which culmulated
                                        into an event wherein I was made aware of the ALL, and my connection
                                        to it.
                                        Kinda like in the Hymn of the Pearl, where the real task had been
                                        forgotten and the child and messenger sent to get the pearl had begun
                                        to serve the other king, then recieves a letter from 'home' which
                                        reminded the child of the task at hand and of their real identity.
                                        Reading the texts were like the letter, it reminded me of the truth,
                                        and for a momnet my perspective allowed me to experience the truth.
                                        Without having learned the truth, or being 'reminded of it' I
                                        wouldn't have really understood what I was seeing and the
                                        comprehension brought about by the event would have also been awry.
                                        That was the point I was trying to make, without success I think.LOL
                                        Hope you walk in Light and Love!!
                                        WHirled and inner peas
                                        DarkChylde


                                        Gnothi Seauton
                                        **Love thy enemies. Messes with their heads!**

                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Darkchylde
                                        >
                                        > >>>I just felt it to be a moment of 'gnosis' as I didn't just hear
                                        > about from a second party, or read it, I KNEW the connection I had
                                        to
                                        > the ALL, the Unmainifest.<<<
                                        >
                                        > Ah, I see what you mean. I had thought you were connecting the
                                        > word "Gnosis" to the experience itself, but if I understand you now
                                        > you mean to connect it to a sort of realization that contextualized
                                        > the experience. Is that correct? It may sound like hair splitting,
                                        but
                                        > the destinction could actually be very very important.
                                        >
                                        > >>>It wasn't due to visualization (although I think that to be a
                                        > usefull and necessary tool in meditation) albeit it may have been
                                        > triggered by my contemplations on the Epinoia. I came back with
                                        > that 'water splashed in the face feeling' and it left me
                                        irrevocably
                                        > changed. If I had never experienced it, I would probably still
                                        believe
                                        > as I do now, but I wouldn't KNOW. It is one thing to read about it,
                                        > contemplate it, talk about it, but it quite another to experience
                                        it.
                                        >
                                        > You know?<<<
                                        >
                                        > Yes, I do. You mentioned in a previous post how you may have taken
                                        the
                                        > experience fery differently if you were, say, Catholic. I think
                                        that
                                        > is a very good and important point... and very related to the
                                        subject
                                        > of whether it is technically "Gnosis" or not. Many people who are
                                        more
                                        > influenced by modern esoteric traditions equate the word with the
                                        > experience itself. It is very often that we hear people say "look,
                                        I
                                        > had this experience so now I have gnosis". In a modern sense of the
                                        > word that is surely true, but I do find it unfortunate that people
                                        > feel the need to foist this modern esoteric thinking back on
                                        > traditional Gnostic thinking in such a way that causes them to
                                        misread
                                        > the Gnostic texts.
                                        >
                                        > In the Gnostic texts this word is simply not a single cohesive
                                        > experiencial instance. I do see how one could read Plato and think
                                        > that is what he meant ("like a flash of light"), or read the
                                        Gnostic
                                        > texts and believe they are talking about the mystical experience,
                                        but
                                        > I think a closer reading shows this to be inaccurate. I think there
                                        is
                                        > no question that the concept of Gnosis is used to describe more
                                        than
                                        > one aspect of revelation, comprehension, and advancement on the
                                        > initiatory path of the ancient Gnostics. The salvific effect
                                        > of "Gnosis" is not generally attributed to a single event so far as
                                        I
                                        > can remember from any of the texts (unless somebody else can think
                                        of
                                        > an example).
                                        >
                                        > One could almost wonder if perhaps in modern English rather than
                                        > claiming to have attained Gnosis, it could be more accurate to talk
                                        > about various gnosises in a larger concept of Gnosis.... if that
                                        makes
                                        > any sense. Just a thought.
                                        >
                                        > PMCV
                                        >
                                      • pmcvflag
                                        Hey Darkchylde ... more dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning the truth on God and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 29, 2006
                                          Hey Darkchylde

                                          >>>But it wasn't just a 'single event' although that moment had the
                                          more dramatic in effect on me. It was the entire process of learning
                                          the 'truth' on 'God' and the spiritual realm, then in a state of
                                          relaxed contemplation could be seen as meditation, which culmulated
                                          into an event wherein I was made aware of the ALL, and my connection
                                          to it.<<<

                                          AH, yes... a process then. I believe we understand each other on
                                          that one.

                                          >>>Kinda like in the Hymn of the Pearl, where the real task had been
                                          forgotten and the child and messenger sent to get the pearl had begun
                                          to serve the other king, then recieves a letter from 'home' which
                                          reminded the child of the task at hand and of their real identity.
                                          Reading the texts were like the letter, it reminded me of the truth,
                                          and for a momnet my perspective allowed me to experience the truth.
                                          Without having learned the truth, or being 'reminded of it' I
                                          wouldn't have really understood what I was seeing and the
                                          comprehension brought about by the event would have also been awry.
                                          That was the point I was trying to make, without success I think.LOL
                                          Hope you walk in Light and Love!!<<<

                                          It seems to me, then, that the next issue would be about exactly
                                          what kind of cosmology and soteriology that these events and studies
                                          imply to the person in question (in this case you or I).

                                          PMCV
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