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Re: Gnostic Baptism

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  • lady_caritas
    ... it ... to ... Baptist ... Heh. Neither is the treatment of his mother, Elizabeth. The author writes, John was begotten by means of a womb worn with
    Message 1 of 37 , Sep 9, 2006
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
      > I'm glad to hear that Layton didn't include TT *lol*. BTW, I just
      > thought I would also add an interesting note for the group (maybe
      it
      > will come up in the Essene conversation as well) that in addition
      to
      > the sects you mention are attacked the treatment of John the
      Baptist
      > is not very sympathetic either.


      Heh. Neither is the treatment of his mother, Elizabeth. The author
      writes, "John was begotten by means of a womb worn with age."

      Ouch.



      >
      > Less obvious, but possibly still significant....
      >
      > "It is through water and fire that the whole place is purified -
      the
      > visible by the visible, the hidden by the hidden. There are some
      > things hidden through those visible. There is water in water, there
      > is fire in chrism."
      >
      > (side note.... considering the subject matter and the mention of
      one
      > of the rituals mentioned in other valentinian texts, along with
      > scribal errors elsewhere in Philip, one could reasonably wonder if
      > the second use of the word "water" in this passage may not have
      > originally been "baptism")


      That's possible. Sure. Yet,... talking about "things hidden
      through those visible" preceding "water in water" compels me to draw
      an immediate association of hidden water through visible water. I
      don't know if that is any less meaningful than spelling it out.

      Since "chrism" is mentioned, it even might be expected to think of
      the water in terms of baptism. Chrism and water are mentioned as
      *both* being necessary for baptism elsewhere in GPh:

      "We are reborn by the holy spirit. And we are born by the anointed
      (Christ) through two things. We are anointed by the spirit. When we
      were born we were joined. No one can see himself in the water or in
      a mirror without light. Nor, again, can you see by the light without
      water or a mirror. For this reason it is necessary to baptize with
      two things – light and water. And light mean chrism."

      Cari
    • lady_caritas
      ... it ... to ... Baptist ... Heh. Neither is the treatment of his mother, Elizabeth. The author writes, John was begotten by means of a womb worn with
      Message 37 of 37 , Sep 9, 2006
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
        > I'm glad to hear that Layton didn't include TT *lol*. BTW, I just
        > thought I would also add an interesting note for the group (maybe
        it
        > will come up in the Essene conversation as well) that in addition
        to
        > the sects you mention are attacked the treatment of John the
        Baptist
        > is not very sympathetic either.


        Heh. Neither is the treatment of his mother, Elizabeth. The author
        writes, "John was begotten by means of a womb worn with age."

        Ouch.



        >
        > Less obvious, but possibly still significant....
        >
        > "It is through water and fire that the whole place is purified -
        the
        > visible by the visible, the hidden by the hidden. There are some
        > things hidden through those visible. There is water in water, there
        > is fire in chrism."
        >
        > (side note.... considering the subject matter and the mention of
        one
        > of the rituals mentioned in other valentinian texts, along with
        > scribal errors elsewhere in Philip, one could reasonably wonder if
        > the second use of the word "water" in this passage may not have
        > originally been "baptism")


        That's possible. Sure. Yet,... talking about "things hidden
        through those visible" preceding "water in water" compels me to draw
        an immediate association of hidden water through visible water. I
        don't know if that is any less meaningful than spelling it out.

        Since "chrism" is mentioned, it even might be expected to think of
        the water in terms of baptism. Chrism and water are mentioned as
        *both* being necessary for baptism elsewhere in GPh:

        "We are reborn by the holy spirit. And we are born by the anointed
        (Christ) through two things. We are anointed by the spirit. When we
        were born we were joined. No one can see himself in the water or in
        a mirror without light. Nor, again, can you see by the light without
        water or a mirror. For this reason it is necessary to baptize with
        two things – light and water. And light mean chrism."

        Cari
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