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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: True Gnosis

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  • Nick Lawrance
    From Darkchylde I will try, although expanding on my ideas sometimes seems to offend. I meant if you believe (or think or have come-to-the-conclusion) that the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 25, 2006
      From Darkchylde
       
      I will try, although expanding on my ideas sometimes seems to offend.
      I meant if you believe (or think or have come-to-the- conclusion)
      that the stories of Jesus were true facts of history, complilation
      of myths and beliefs, or whatever, that one can interpret the same
      message from all of it.
      Did I make my statement clearer or did I sling more mud on the lens?
      Darkchylde 

      .......................................
       
      Well I wouldn't be so sure about that as the Gnostics were accused of corrupting the scriptures by their Orthodox opponents when they attempted to portray the miracles in an allegorical function.
       
      Nick
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:40 PM
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: True Gnosis

      --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "Nick Lawrance"
      <nicholson2000ret@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > From Darkchylde
      >
      > Whether you take myths to be metaphorical or not, I believe you
      would
      > still come to the same conclusions. I have not decided on whether
      or
      > not the 'stories' of Yeshua were 'real', but I feel, or if he
      existed
      > as one person or the compliation of many male-sacrifice- god based
      > beliefs of that time and this. But that rift aside, I agree
      > wholeheartedly with Ralph in his base assertion that true gnosis
      is
      > to 'know thyself.' Hard to do, look at oneself without denial. For
      > me, at any rate. Thanks for the light, Ralph.
      > ............ ......... ........
      > >>Whether you take myths to be metaphorical or not, I believe you
      would
      > still come to the same conclusions.
      > ............ ......... ......... ......... ....
      > Can you expand on that statement, I do not know what you mean.
      >
      > Nick
      >
      >
      >

      I will try, although expanding on my ideas sometimes seems to offend.
      I meant if you believe (or think or have come-to-the- conclusion)
      that the stories of Jesus were true facts of history, complilation
      of myths and beliefs, or whatever, that one can interpret the same
      message from all of it.
      Did I make my statement clearer or did I sling more mud on the lens?
      Darkchylde
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: imdarkchylde
      > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:23 PM
      > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: True Gnosis
      >
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "Nick Lawrance"
      > <nicholson2000ret@ > wrote:
      > >
      > > From: Ralph Renick
      > >
      > > To reach this Gnostic state of such a complete knowing of
      Jesus as
      > > the savior and God as he truly is, with no questioning
      consciously
      > > or doubt within your inner being is what is going to get your
      spark
      > > of light to God......
      > > ......Jesus raised people from the dead, drove demons out and
      > healed the
      > > sick and blind. All of these miracles were for the purpose of
      > > attempting to convince his diciples that, through gnosis they
      could
      > > easily do the same.
      > > ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... .........
      > >
      > > I liked your remarks above on the understanding of Gnosis
      until I
      > came to the statements concerning the miracles of Jesus as
      practical
      > Gnosis for it is certainly not how Gnostics understand it. I can
      > assure you that I and I do not believe any other human being
      > Can "walk on water, raise the dead, etc... no matter how hard I
      or
      > they believe" If you search on the relationship between Jesus
      and the
      > Pagan God men, you will find many equivalences to the miracles
      of
      > Jesus. Horus is a good example, he also raised the dead, walked
      on
      > water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the
      blind
      > etc.. The early Christians were well aware that they were
      > appropriating the stories of the God men into the story of
      Jesus; and
      > then when they got into power they did all they could to destroy
      that
      > knowledge of its pagan origins. But at least the mystery
      traditions
      > understood the mystery as it was meant to be taken and did not
      make
      > their stories literal as Christianity has done. Do not get me
      wrong I
      > personally do not believe that Jesus is nothing but a myth as
      many of
      > those who tend to draw these conclusions when they discover the
      truth
      > about Christianity but as indicated your literal interpretations
      are
      > not well founded at all. Jesus actions could also be seen as a
      > metaphor, for example the statement concerning the raising of
      the
      > dead; when one of his disciples asks to return home to bury his
      > father, he tells him to 'leave the dead bury their own dead.
      (Luke
      > 9:59-62). How else can you take this as but a metaphor.
      Resurrection
      > in the Gnostic gospels comes to one when one experiences the
      > spiritual resurrection.
      > >
      > > 11) Jesus said: This heaven will pass away, and the one above
      it
      > will pass away; and those who are dead are not alive, and those
      who
      > are living will not die. In the days when you ate of what is
      dead,
      > you made of it what is living. When you come to be light, what
      will
      > you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when
      you
      > have become two, what will you do? (Gospel of Thomas)
      > >
      > >

      .

    • verna ward
      That s true. I can personally derive a similar message from either viewpoints, but I realize that many couldn t or wouldn t want to. It is a thread I find
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 25, 2006
        That's true.  I can personally derive a similar message from either viewpoints, but I realize that many couldn't or wouldn't want to.  It is a thread I find prevalent in many faiths, said many ways.  But I seek the common thread, which in my mind one validates the other.  But I doubt the ancient gnostics did this, or felt that was the point. ( I'm feeling round and rather pointless. )
        Perhaps the orthodox feel I corrupt the scriptures by believing that much is symbolism and allagory, but perhaps the other spiritual communities would feel I am corrupting their beliefs and structures by seeking to draw parallels and show similarities.  It is never taken well yet, anyway.
        Love and peas
        Darkchylde
         
         


        Nick Lawrance <nicholson2000ret@...> wrote:
        From Darkchylde
         
        I will try, although expanding on my ideas sometimes seems to offend.
        I meant if you believe (or think or have come-to-the- conclusion)
        that the stories of Jesus were true facts of history, complilation
        of myths and beliefs, or whatever, that one can interpret the same
        message from all of it.
        Did I make my statement clearer or did I sling more mud on the lens?
        Darkchylde 

        .......................................
         
        Well I wouldn't be so sure about that as the Gnostics were accused of corrupting the scriptures by their Orthodox opponents when they attempted to portray the miracles in an allegorical function.
         
        Nick
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:40 PM
        Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: True Gnosis

        --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "Nick Lawrance"
        <nicholson2000ret@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > From Darkchylde
        >
        > Whether you take myths to be metaphorical or not, I believe you
        would
        > still come to the same conclusions. I have not decided on whether
        or
        > not the 'stories' of Yeshua were 'real', but I feel, or if he
        existed
        > as one person or the compliation of many male-sacrifice- god based
        > beliefs of that time and this. But that rift aside, I agree
        > wholeheartedly with Ralph in his base assertion that true gnosis
        is
        > to 'know thyself.' Hard to do, look at oneself without denial. For
        > me, at any rate. Thanks for the light, Ralph.
        > ............ ......... ........
        > >>Whether you take myths to be metaphorical or not, I believe you
        would
        > still come to the same conclusions.
        > ............ ......... ......... ......... ....
        > Can you expand on that statement, I do not know what you mean.
        >
        > Nick
        >
        >
        >

        I will try, although expanding on my ideas sometimes seems to offend.
        I meant if you believe (or think or have come-to-the- conclusion)
        that the stories of Jesus were true facts of history, complilation
        of myths and beliefs, or whatever, that one can interpret the same
        message from all of it.
        Did I make my statement clearer or did I sling more mud on the lens?
        Darkchylde
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: imdarkchylde
        > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:23 PM
        > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: True Gnosis
        >
        >
        > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "Nick Lawrance"
        > <nicholson2000ret@ > wrote:
        > >
        > > From: Ralph Renick
        > >
        > > To reach this Gnostic state of such a complete knowing of
        Jesus as
        > > the savior and God as he truly is, with no questioning
        consciously
        > > or doubt within your inner being is what is going to get your
        spark
        > > of light to God......
        > > ......Jesus raised people from the dead, drove demons out and
        > healed the
        > > sick and blind. All of these miracles were for the purpose of
        > > attempting to convince his diciples that, through gnosis they
        could
        > > easily do the same.
        > > ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... .........
        > >
        > > I liked your remarks above on the understanding of Gnosis
        until I
        > came to the statements concerning the miracles of Jesus as
        practical
        > Gnosis for it is certainly not how Gnostics understand it. I can
        > assure you that I and I do not believe any other human being
        > Can "walk on water, raise the dead, etc... no matter how hard I
        or
        > they believe" If you search on the relationship between Jesus
        and the
        > Pagan God men, you will find many equivalences to the miracles
        of
        > Jesus. Horus is a good example, he also raised the dead, walked
        on
        > water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the
        blind
        > etc.. The early Christians were well aware that they were
        > appropriating the stories of the God men into the story of
        Jesus; and
        > then when they got into power they did all they could to destroy
        that
        > knowledge of its pagan origins. But at least the mystery
        traditions
        > understood the mystery as it was meant to be taken and did not
        make
        > their stories literal as Christianity has done. Do not get me
        wrong I
        > personally do not believe that Jesus is nothing but a myth as
        many of
        > those who tend to draw these conclusions when they discover the
        truth
        > about Christianity but as indicated your literal interpretations
        are
        > not well founded at all. Jesus actions could also be seen as a
        > metaphor, for example the statement concerning the raising of
        the
        > dead; when one of his disciples asks to return home to bury his
        > father, he tells him to 'leave the dead bury their own dead.
        (Luke
        > 9:59-62). How else can you take this as but a metaphor.
        Resurrection
        > in the Gnostic gospels comes to one when one experiences the
        > spiritual resurrection.
        > >
        > > 11) Jesus said: This heaven will pass away, and the one above
        it
        > will pass away; and those who are dead are not alive, and those
        who
        > are living will not die. In the days when you ate of what is
        dead,
        > you made of it what is living. When you come to be light, what
        will
        > you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when
        you
        > have become two, what will you do? (Gospel of Thomas)
        > >
        > >
        .



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