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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Valentinian Exegesis of the Pauline Corpus

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  • --Michael
    Indeed. I still remember Festus (Ken Curtis) on Gunsmoke saying yay-hoos. I ve always pronounced it yah-hoo but have been know to refer to it as
    Message 1 of 24 , May 8, 2006
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      Indeed.

      I still remember Festus (Ken Curtis) on Gunsmoke saying
      "yay-hoos." I've always pronounced it "yah-hoo" but have been
      know to refer to it as "yah-hooey."

      Still, Yahoo is head-and-shoulders above MSN Groups. I
      despise excessive, not to mention garish and tasteless, use
      of graphics.


      --Michael


      --- Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:

      > --Michael wrote:
      > > Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The
      workings of Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient
      Gnostic texts.
      > >

      > You have to wonder about an organization that names itself
      > after the demented humanoids of Johnathan Swift.


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    • --Michael
      I was wondering if there s a significant difference between _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis Barnstone. And also wondering about
      Message 2 of 24 , May 8, 2006
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        I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
        _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
        Barnstone.

        And also wondering about Hoeller's _Gnosticism_. Good, bad,
        ...?

        For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
        of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?


        --Michael




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      • lady_caritas
        ... Michael, _The Other Bible_ contains selections of literature (among them some Gnostic writings) from Judeo-Christian traditions that were not included in
        Message 3 of 24 , May 9, 2006
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
          > _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
          > Barnstone.


          Michael, _The Other Bible_ contains selections of literature (among
          them some Gnostic writings) from Judeo-Christian traditions that were
          not included in the orthodox Christian Bible canon.

          _The Gnostic Bible_ is an anthology of texts the editors have deemed
          as broadly "gnostic." Some of the literature included is not
          regarded by various scholars to fit the category of historical
          Gnosticism, but this literature is often from groups that at least
          could be considered as related traditions.


          > And also wondering about Hoeller's _Gnosticism_. Good, bad,
          > ...?


          I found Hoeller's book to be an enjoyable read. It's a good
          introduction, but of course does include some subjective views of his.



          > For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
          > of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
          >


          Very good.


          Cari
        • Gerry
          Hi, Michael. I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I m having some computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my emergency
          Message 4 of 24 , May 10, 2006
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            Hi, Michael.

            I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I'm having some computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my emergency laptop is little consolation.

             

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:

            >
            > I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
            > _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
            > Barnstone.

             

            One other thing to keep in mind, Michael, is that both The Other Bible and The Gnostic Bible offer abridged versions for some of the translated texts. This is fine for those who are simply looking for an introductory taste of works excluded from their own religious tradition, or for those who prefer a flowing and accessible rendering of some of these diverse and difficult works, but for carefully examining what the Gnostic authors actually sought to convey, one would be well advised to balance those anthologies with Robinson's affordable compilation, The Nag Hammadi Library. I stress "affordable" there because the next step up in my own recommended reading list would be another series edited by Robinson, The Coptic Gnostic Library (the forerunner of the NHL).

            Since I've broached the subject of "readability" already, it should be mentioned that this is another aspect of Robinson's collection that should be taken into consideration. Personally, I frequently found myself avoiding certain tractates in his book simply because of the numerous lacunae. It's definitely a challenge to read something all the way through when it sometimes seems as if every passage consists of random words interspersed with countless bracketed ellipses. My own copy of the NHL is the first edition, so I was somewhat dismayed just now when I looked up a critique of his revised edition and found that the "new & improved" version was even more conservative (i.e., less fluid). The same reviewer suggested that it would be nice to see yet another revision in which those lacunae are preserved (so that the reader can see where actual gaps and irregularities exist in the extant originals), but where such voids in the text were supplemented with footnotes offering scholarly insight into what they likely contained. Frankly, such a work already exists (inasmuch as it is possible to speculate on filling some of those holes), but it is the more expensive CGL that I referred to above. If anyone here happens to own both editions of the popularly targeted NHL, I would be interested in hearing additional insights regarding differences between the translations presented in these two.



            >

            > For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
            > of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
            >
            >
            > --Michael
            >

             

            As Cari said, this is a very good overview of the subject. As always, however, I wouldn't want anyone taking the opinions expressed therein as gospel, and neglecting the more recent research of other scholars in the field. Frankly, there are groups out there who do just that, not only with Rudolph's book, but even the older work of Hans Jonas. Basically, such people read these and seem to conclude that the measure of a Gnostic group is how similarly it resonates with Marcionism. When they get started on their rants, "Old Testament god bad; New Testament God good," it soon comes across as little more than a heavily dualistic, anti-Semitic brand of orthodoxy in which Jesus has still come to rescue us all from a life of sin. The mere concept of anything actually "transcendent" is usually lost on such individuals.  If you run across these people in your Internet travels, you will recognize them immediately.  ;-)

            Gerry

          • Michael Leavitt
            ... -- M. Leavitt
            Message 5 of 24 , May 10, 2006
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              Gerry wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi, Michael.
              >
              > I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I'm having some
              > computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my
              > emergency laptop is little consolation.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
              >
              >> I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
              >> _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
              >> Barnstone.
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > One other thing to keep in mind, Michael, is that both The Other Bible
              > and The Gnostic Bible offer abridged versions for some of the translated
              > texts. This is fine for those who are simply looking for an introductory
              > taste of works excluded from their own religious tradition, or for those
              > who prefer a flowing and accessible rendering of some of these diverse
              > and difficult works, but for carefully examining what the Gnostic
              > authors actually sought to convey, one would be well advised to balance
              > those anthologies with Robinson's affordable compilation, The Nag
              > Hammadi Library
              > <http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=00\
              > 60669357&itm=1> . I stress "affordable" there because the next step up
              > in my own recommended reading list would be another series edited by
              > Robinson, The Coptic Gnostic Library
              > <http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ISBN=900411\
              > 7024&pdf=y&z=y> (the forerunner of the NHL).
              >
              > Since I've broached the subject of "readability" already, it should
              > be mentioned that this is another aspect of Robinson's collection
              > that should be taken into consideration. Personally, I frequently found
              > myself avoiding certain tractates in his book simply because of the
              > numerous lacunae. It's definitely a challenge to read something all
              > the way through when it sometimes seems as if every passage consists of
              > random words interspersed with countless bracketed ellipses. My own copy
              > of the NHL is the first edition, so I was somewhat dismayed just now
              > when I looked up a critique of his revised edition and found that the
              > "new & improved" version was even more conservative (i.e., less fluid).
              > The same reviewer suggested that it would be nice to see yet another
              > revision in which those lacunae are preserved (so that the reader can
              > see where actual gaps and irregularities exist in the extant originals),
              > but where such voids in the text were supplemented with footnotes
              > offering scholarly insight into what they likely contained. Frankly,
              > such a work already exists (inasmuch as it is possible to speculate on
              > filling some of those holes), but it is the more expensive CGL that I
              > referred to above. If anyone here happens to own both editions of the
              > popularly targeted NHL, I would be interested in hearing additional
              > insights regarding differences between the translations presented in
              > these two.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >> For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
              >> of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
              >>
              >>
              >> --Michael
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > As Cari said, this is a very good overview of the subject. As always,
              > however, I wouldn't want anyone taking the opinions expressed
              > therein as gospel, and neglecting the more recent research of other
              > scholars in the field. Frankly, there are groups out there who do just
              > that, not only with Rudolph's book, but even the older work of Hans
              > Jonas. Basically, such people read these and seem to conclude that the
              > measure of a Gnostic group is how similarly it resonates with
              > Marcionism. When they get started on their rants, "Old Testament god
              > bad; New Testament God good," it soon comes across as little more than a
              > heavily dualistic, anti-Semitic brand of orthodoxy in which Jesus has
              > still come to rescue us all from a life of sin. The mere concept of
              > anything actually "transcendent" is usually lost on such individuals.
              > If you run across these people in your Internet travels, you will
              > recognize them immediately. ;-)
              >
              > Gerry
              >
              > Try the wife's, a Compaq Presario 1200, a P-1 peocessor and no USB, of course only one port on this Compaq P-IV 2 gig thing isn't USB. I don't really like that but it is fast, even with Windoze XP pro. Gotta try it with Linux!
              >
              --
              M. Leavitt
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