Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Valentinian Exegesis of the Pauline Corpus

Expand Messages
  • lady_caritas
    Apparently we ve been having some serious technical difficulties regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to resend a message Michael attempted to post.
    Message 1 of 24 , May 8, 2006
      Apparently we've been having some serious technical difficulties
      regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to resend a message
      Michael attempted to post. Both messages still haven't appeared. I
      don't know how many other members have had difficulty posting.

      I'm going to try once more to send Michael's reply.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      --- lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      > Hi, Michael. _The Other Bible_ is edited by Willis
      Barnstone, who also was one of the editors of the more recent
      _The Gnostic Bible_.
      >

      Ah, got that on order.
      Found the "Other Bible" on amazon. Thanks for the help.


      > I wouldn't get hung up on the term "bible" regarding these
      two modern collections of various religious texts, although I
      agree that the connotation can be confusing.
      >

      Sometimes I'm too much of a stickler.


      > They are *not* intended to be compilations of texts for
      specific religious use with an absolute authoritarian
      function. In fact, I think the editors of _The Gnostic
      Bible_ realized misunderstanding that could ensue from use
      of the word "bible," and they do explain the history and
      their use of the term in the introduction to the book. They
      specifically say that "the sacred literature in this Bible
      constitutes no closed canon."
      >

      Good. But the word "Bible" is catchy. Good search term, too.

      Fair enough.


      > PMCV's recommendation, _The Nag Hammadi Library_, edited by
      James M. Robinson, does provide helpful introductions to
      works. In addition, if you like annotations, you'll find
      plenty in Bentley Layton's _The Gnostic Scriptures_, which
      contains selected scriptures.
      >

      Thanks for the other reference. I'll look it up on zam-azon.
      <g>


      --Michael
    • lady_caritas
      Well, hallelujah! We re up and running again. *lol* Cari ... I
      Message 2 of 24 , May 8, 2006
        Well, hallelujah! We're up and running again. *lol*

        Cari

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Apparently we've been having some serious technical difficulties
        > regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to resend a message
        > Michael attempted to post. Both messages still haven't appeared.
        I
        > don't know how many other members have had difficulty posting.
        >
        > I'm going to try once more to send Michael's reply.
        >
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >
        >
        > --- lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        >
        > > Hi, Michael. _The Other Bible_ is edited by Willis
        > Barnstone, who also was one of the editors of the more recent
        > _The Gnostic Bible_.
        > >
        >
        > Ah, got that on order.
        > Found the "Other Bible" on amazon. Thanks for the help.
        >
        >
        > > I wouldn't get hung up on the term "bible" regarding these
        > two modern collections of various religious texts, although I
        > agree that the connotation can be confusing.
        > >
        >
        > Sometimes I'm too much of a stickler.
        >
        >
        > > They are *not* intended to be compilations of texts for
        > specific religious use with an absolute authoritarian
        > function. In fact, I think the editors of _The Gnostic
        > Bible_ realized misunderstanding that could ensue from use
        > of the word "bible," and they do explain the history and
        > their use of the term in the introduction to the book. They
        > specifically say that "the sacred literature in this Bible
        > constitutes no closed canon."
        > >
        >
        > Good. But the word "Bible" is catchy. Good search term, too.
        >
        > Fair enough.
        >
        >
        > > PMCV's recommendation, _The Nag Hammadi Library_, edited by
        > James M. Robinson, does provide helpful introductions to
        > works. In addition, if you like annotations, you'll find
        > plenty in Bentley Layton's _The Gnostic Scriptures_, which
        > contains selected scriptures.
        > >
        >
        > Thanks for the other reference. I'll look it up on zam-azon.
        > <g>
        >
        >
        > --Michael
        >
      • --Michael
        I was wondering what might have happened. Thanks. Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The workings of Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient
        Message 3 of 24 , May 8, 2006
          I was wondering what might have happened. Thanks.

          Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The workings of
          Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient Gnostic texts.


          --Michael


          --- lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          > Apparently we've been having some serious technical
          difficulties regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to
          resend a message Michael attempted to post. Both messages
          still haven't appeared. I don't know how many other members
          have had difficulty posting.
          >
          > I'm going to try once more to send Michael's reply.
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Michael Leavitt
          ... You have to wonder about an organization that names itself after the demented humanoids of Johnathan Swift.
          Message 4 of 24 , May 8, 2006
            --Michael wrote:
            > I was wondering what might have happened. Thanks.
            >
            > Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The workings of
            > Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient Gnostic texts.
            >
            You have to wonder about an organization that names itself after the
            demented humanoids of Johnathan Swift.
          • --Michael
            Indeed. I still remember Festus (Ken Curtis) on Gunsmoke saying yay-hoos. I ve always pronounced it yah-hoo but have been know to refer to it as
            Message 5 of 24 , May 8, 2006
              Indeed.

              I still remember Festus (Ken Curtis) on Gunsmoke saying
              "yay-hoos." I've always pronounced it "yah-hoo" but have been
              know to refer to it as "yah-hooey."

              Still, Yahoo is head-and-shoulders above MSN Groups. I
              despise excessive, not to mention garish and tasteless, use
              of graphics.


              --Michael


              --- Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:

              > --Michael wrote:
              > > Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The
              workings of Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient
              Gnostic texts.
              > >

              > You have to wonder about an organization that names itself
              > after the demented humanoids of Johnathan Swift.


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • --Michael
              I was wondering if there s a significant difference between _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis Barnstone. And also wondering about
              Message 6 of 24 , May 8, 2006
                I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                Barnstone.

                And also wondering about Hoeller's _Gnosticism_. Good, bad,
                ...?

                For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?


                --Michael




                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com
              • lady_caritas
                ... Michael, _The Other Bible_ contains selections of literature (among them some Gnostic writings) from Judeo-Christian traditions that were not included in
                Message 7 of 24 , May 9, 2006
                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                  > _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                  > Barnstone.


                  Michael, _The Other Bible_ contains selections of literature (among
                  them some Gnostic writings) from Judeo-Christian traditions that were
                  not included in the orthodox Christian Bible canon.

                  _The Gnostic Bible_ is an anthology of texts the editors have deemed
                  as broadly "gnostic." Some of the literature included is not
                  regarded by various scholars to fit the category of historical
                  Gnosticism, but this literature is often from groups that at least
                  could be considered as related traditions.


                  > And also wondering about Hoeller's _Gnosticism_. Good, bad,
                  > ...?


                  I found Hoeller's book to be an enjoyable read. It's a good
                  introduction, but of course does include some subjective views of his.



                  > For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                  > of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
                  >


                  Very good.


                  Cari
                • Gerry
                  Hi, Michael. I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I m having some computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my emergency
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 10, 2006


                     

                    Hi, Michael.

                    I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I'm having some computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my emergency laptop is little consolation.

                     

                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                    > _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                    > Barnstone.

                     

                    One other thing to keep in mind, Michael, is that both The Other Bible and The Gnostic Bible offer abridged versions for some of the translated texts. This is fine for those who are simply looking for an introductory taste of works excluded from their own religious tradition, or for those who prefer a flowing and accessible rendering of some of these diverse and difficult works, but for carefully examining what the Gnostic authors actually sought to convey, one would be well advised to balance those anthologies with Robinson's affordable compilation, The Nag Hammadi Library. I stress "affordable" there because the next step up in my own recommended reading list would be another series edited by Robinson, The Coptic Gnostic Library (the forerunner of the NHL).

                    Since I've broached the subject of "readability" already, it should be mentioned that this is another aspect of Robinson's collection that should be taken into consideration. Personally, I frequently found myself avoiding certain tractates in his book simply because of the numerous lacunae. It's definitely a challenge to read something all the way through when it sometimes seems as if every passage consists of random words interspersed with countless bracketed ellipses. My own copy of the NHL is the first edition, so I was somewhat dismayed just now when I looked up a critique of his revised edition and found that the "new & improved" version was even more conservative (i.e., less fluid). The same reviewer suggested that it would be nice to see yet another revision in which those lacunae are preserved (so that the reader can see where actual gaps and irregularities exist in the extant originals), but where such voids in the text were supplemented with footnotes offering scholarly insight into what they likely contained. Frankly, such a work already exists (inasmuch as it is possible to speculate on filling some of those holes), but it is the more expensive CGL that I referred to above. If anyone here happens to own both editions of the popularly targeted NHL, I would be interested in hearing additional insights regarding differences between the translations presented in these two.



                    >

                    > For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                    > of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
                    >
                    >
                    > --Michael
                    >

                     

                    As Cari said, this is a very good overview of the subject. As always, however, I wouldn't want anyone taking the opinions expressed therein as gospel, and neglecting the more recent research of other scholars in the field. Frankly, there are groups out there who do just that, not only with Rudolph's book, but even the older work of Hans Jonas. Basically, such people read these and seem to conclude that the measure of a Gnostic group is how similarly it resonates with Marcionism. When they get started on their rants, "Old Testament god bad; New Testament God good," it soon comes across as little more than a heavily dualistic, anti-Semitic brand of orthodoxy in which Jesus has still come to rescue us all from a life of sin. The mere concept of anything actually "transcendent" is usually lost on such individuals.  If you run across these people in your Internet travels, you will recognize them immediately.  ;-)

                    Gerry

                  • Michael Leavitt
                    ... -- M. Leavitt
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 10, 2006
                      Gerry wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi, Michael.
                      >
                      > I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I'm having some
                      > computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my
                      > emergency laptop is little consolation.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                      >> _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                      >> Barnstone.
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > One other thing to keep in mind, Michael, is that both The Other Bible
                      > and The Gnostic Bible offer abridged versions for some of the translated
                      > texts. This is fine for those who are simply looking for an introductory
                      > taste of works excluded from their own religious tradition, or for those
                      > who prefer a flowing and accessible rendering of some of these diverse
                      > and difficult works, but for carefully examining what the Gnostic
                      > authors actually sought to convey, one would be well advised to balance
                      > those anthologies with Robinson's affordable compilation, The Nag
                      > Hammadi Library
                      > <http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=00\
                      > 60669357&itm=1> . I stress "affordable" there because the next step up
                      > in my own recommended reading list would be another series edited by
                      > Robinson, The Coptic Gnostic Library
                      > <http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ISBN=900411\
                      > 7024&pdf=y&z=y> (the forerunner of the NHL).
                      >
                      > Since I've broached the subject of "readability" already, it should
                      > be mentioned that this is another aspect of Robinson's collection
                      > that should be taken into consideration. Personally, I frequently found
                      > myself avoiding certain tractates in his book simply because of the
                      > numerous lacunae. It's definitely a challenge to read something all
                      > the way through when it sometimes seems as if every passage consists of
                      > random words interspersed with countless bracketed ellipses. My own copy
                      > of the NHL is the first edition, so I was somewhat dismayed just now
                      > when I looked up a critique of his revised edition and found that the
                      > "new & improved" version was even more conservative (i.e., less fluid).
                      > The same reviewer suggested that it would be nice to see yet another
                      > revision in which those lacunae are preserved (so that the reader can
                      > see where actual gaps and irregularities exist in the extant originals),
                      > but where such voids in the text were supplemented with footnotes
                      > offering scholarly insight into what they likely contained. Frankly,
                      > such a work already exists (inasmuch as it is possible to speculate on
                      > filling some of those holes), but it is the more expensive CGL that I
                      > referred to above. If anyone here happens to own both editions of the
                      > popularly targeted NHL, I would be interested in hearing additional
                      > insights regarding differences between the translations presented in
                      > these two.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                      >> of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> --Michael
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As Cari said, this is a very good overview of the subject. As always,
                      > however, I wouldn't want anyone taking the opinions expressed
                      > therein as gospel, and neglecting the more recent research of other
                      > scholars in the field. Frankly, there are groups out there who do just
                      > that, not only with Rudolph's book, but even the older work of Hans
                      > Jonas. Basically, such people read these and seem to conclude that the
                      > measure of a Gnostic group is how similarly it resonates with
                      > Marcionism. When they get started on their rants, "Old Testament god
                      > bad; New Testament God good," it soon comes across as little more than a
                      > heavily dualistic, anti-Semitic brand of orthodoxy in which Jesus has
                      > still come to rescue us all from a life of sin. The mere concept of
                      > anything actually "transcendent" is usually lost on such individuals.
                      > If you run across these people in your Internet travels, you will
                      > recognize them immediately. ;-)
                      >
                      > Gerry
                      >
                      > Try the wife's, a Compaq Presario 1200, a P-1 peocessor and no USB, of course only one port on this Compaq P-IV 2 gig thing isn't USB. I don't really like that but it is fast, even with Windoze XP pro. Gotta try it with Linux!
                      >
                      --
                      M. Leavitt
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.