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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Valentinian Exegesis of the Pauline Corpus

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  • William
    Is the Gospel of Judas available on-line? ... From: pmcvflag To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 2:20 AM Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re:
    Message 1 of 24 , May 4 12:36 AM
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      Is the "Gospel of Judas" available on-line?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: pmcvflag
      Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 2:20 AM
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Valentinian Exegesis of the Pauline Corpus

      Hey Michael

      The so called "Other Bible" is just a collection you can most likely
      find at any larger bookstore. As with the "Gnostic Bible" it should
      be seen in the context of the intent of the editors. You can find
      most of these texts online for free at http://www.gnosis.org/
      (Icybrethovhecate need not have suggested these texts to Mike, since
      it is Mike's church that has put these texts online and Mike is well
      versed in these sources).

      Many of these texts in both the "Other Bible" and the "Gnostic
      Bible" are texts you will also find in the Nag Hammadi. The writings
      of Ptolemy, along with the writings of Theodotus and Heracleon (also
      both important Valentinian sources) are found in heresiological
      sources.... again all found on the Gnosis.org site I mentioned above.

      All in all, if you want to explore Gnosticism then the Nag Hammadi
      Library is BY FAR the general collection to get. Of course, the
      recently translated "Gospel of Judas" (edt. Kasser Meyer, Wurst) is
      also part of the same genre and widely available. If you read the
      notes it is actually kind of a good intro to Gnosticism in general.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks for the links.
      >
      > The ebay link didn't work (I did paste the entire URL).
      >
      > Never heard of the Other Bible. What might that be?
      >
      >
      > --Michael
      >
      >
      > --- icybrethovhecate <icybrethovhecate@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I hope you enjoy the above links.  I couldn't find the
      > document I really wanted "Ptolemy's Valentinian System",
      > but is  contained in the Other Bible(which is a good purchase
      > anyway) http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Other-Bible-brand-
      >
      new_W0QQitemZ4636853984QQcategoryZ378QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie
      w
      > > Item
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
      >




    • --Michael
      ... most likely find at any larger bookstore. ... Sorry. Still confused. I haunt the local Borders. Never have seen anything like what you describe. Are you
      Message 2 of 24 , May 4 4:28 AM
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        --- pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        > Hey Michael
        >
        > The so called "Other Bible" is just a collection you can
        most likely find at any larger bookstore.
        >

        Sorry. Still confused. I haunt the local Borders. Never have
        seen anything like what you describe. Are you referring to
        collections such as Nag Hammadi, books thereon, or the
        so-called "Gnostic Bible?"

        If you're not referring to a specific book but, rather, to a
        set of texts, why the word "bible?" The connotation is
        something authoritative (there used to be a "Shooter's" and
        an "Angler's Bible" some years back).


        > As with the "Gnostic Bible" it should be seen in the
        context of the intent of the editors. You can find most of
        these texts online for free at http://www.gnosis.org/
        >

        That's been bookmarked.

        [snip]


        > All in all, if you want to explore Gnosticism then the Nag
        Hammadi Library is BY FAR the general collection to get. Of
        course, the recently translated "Gospel of Judas" (edt.
        Kasser Meyer, Wurst) is also part of the same genre and
        widely available. If you read the notes it is actually kind
        of a good intro to Gnosticism in general.
        >
        > PMCV

        Much appreciated.

        Notes and explanations are what I need. Reading the texts
        without background and context is rather fruitless for me.

        Seems the Gospel of Judas has gotten more than a fair share
        of attention; methinks its importance has been blown way out
        of proportion.

        Publicity is good for sales, though. The Vatican's
        condemnation of the Da Vinci Code surely will help sell even
        more copies. If I'd not already purchased the book, I would
        on that recommendation. <G>


        --Michael


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      • lady_caritas
        ... Hello, William. You can download both the English and Coptic versions from this webpage: http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/document.html Cari
        Message 3 of 24 , May 4 4:56 AM
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "William" <willpenrhiw@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is the "Gospel of Judas" available on-line?
          >


          Hello, William. You can download both the English and Coptic versions
          from this webpage:

          http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/document.html


          Cari
        • lady_caritas
          ... Hi, Michael. _The Other Bible_ is edited by Willis Barnstone, http://web.whittier.edu/barnstone/OTHERBIBLE.HTM who also was one of the editors of the more
          Message 4 of 24 , May 4 5:35 AM
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            >
            > > Hey Michael
            > >
            > > The so called "Other Bible" is just a collection you can
            > most likely find at any larger bookstore.
            > >
            >
            > Sorry. Still confused. I haunt the local Borders. Never have
            > seen anything like what you describe. Are you referring to
            > collections such as Nag Hammadi, books thereon, or the
            > so-called "Gnostic Bible?"
            >
            > If you're not referring to a specific book but, rather, to a
            > set of texts, why the word "bible?" The connotation is
            > something authoritative (there used to be a "Shooter's" and
            > an "Angler's Bible" some years back).



            Hi, Michael. _The Other Bible_ is edited by Willis Barnstone,
            http://web.whittier.edu/barnstone/OTHERBIBLE.HTM

            who also was one of the editors of the more recent _The Gnostic
            Bible_.

            Both books are available in bookstores and through online
            booksellers. I wouldn't get hung up on the term "bible" regarding
            these two modern collections of various religious texts, although I
            agree that the connotation can be confusing. They are *not* intended
            to be compilations of texts for specific religious use with an
            absolute authoritarian function. In fact, I think the editors of
            _The Gnostic Bible_ realized misunderstanding that could ensue from
            use of the word "bible," and they do explain the history and their
            use of the term in the introduction to the book. They specifically
            say that "the sacred literature in this Bible constitutes no closed
            canon."



            >
            > > All in all, if you want to explore Gnosticism then the Nag
            > Hammadi Library is BY FAR the general collection to get. Of
            > course, the recently translated "Gospel of Judas" (edt.
            > Kasser Meyer, Wurst) is also part of the same genre and
            > widely available. If you read the notes it is actually kind
            > of a good intro to Gnosticism in general.
            > >
            > > PMCV
            >
            > Much appreciated.
            >
            > Notes and explanations are what I need. Reading the texts
            > without background and context is rather fruitless for me.
            >


            PMCV's recommendation, _The Nag Hammadi Library_, edited by James M.
            Robinson, does provide helpful introductions to works. In addition,
            if you like annotations, you'll find plenty in Bentley Layton's _The
            Gnostic Scriptures_, which contains selected scriptures.

            Cari
          • lady_caritas
            Apparently we ve been having some serious technical difficulties regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to resend a message Michael attempted to post.
            Message 5 of 24 , May 8 5:58 AM
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              Apparently we've been having some serious technical difficulties
              regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to resend a message
              Michael attempted to post. Both messages still haven't appeared. I
              don't know how many other members have had difficulty posting.

              I'm going to try once more to send Michael's reply.

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


              --- lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              > Hi, Michael. _The Other Bible_ is edited by Willis
              Barnstone, who also was one of the editors of the more recent
              _The Gnostic Bible_.
              >

              Ah, got that on order.
              Found the "Other Bible" on amazon. Thanks for the help.


              > I wouldn't get hung up on the term "bible" regarding these
              two modern collections of various religious texts, although I
              agree that the connotation can be confusing.
              >

              Sometimes I'm too much of a stickler.


              > They are *not* intended to be compilations of texts for
              specific religious use with an absolute authoritarian
              function. In fact, I think the editors of _The Gnostic
              Bible_ realized misunderstanding that could ensue from use
              of the word "bible," and they do explain the history and
              their use of the term in the introduction to the book. They
              specifically say that "the sacred literature in this Bible
              constitutes no closed canon."
              >

              Good. But the word "Bible" is catchy. Good search term, too.

              Fair enough.


              > PMCV's recommendation, _The Nag Hammadi Library_, edited by
              James M. Robinson, does provide helpful introductions to
              works. In addition, if you like annotations, you'll find
              plenty in Bentley Layton's _The Gnostic Scriptures_, which
              contains selected scriptures.
              >

              Thanks for the other reference. I'll look it up on zam-azon.
              <g>


              --Michael
            • lady_caritas
              Well, hallelujah! We re up and running again. *lol* Cari ... I
              Message 6 of 24 , May 8 6:00 AM
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                Well, hallelujah! We're up and running again. *lol*

                Cari

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Apparently we've been having some serious technical difficulties
                > regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to resend a message
                > Michael attempted to post. Both messages still haven't appeared.
                I
                > don't know how many other members have had difficulty posting.
                >
                > I'm going to try once more to send Michael's reply.
                >
                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                >
                >
                > --- lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                >
                > > Hi, Michael. _The Other Bible_ is edited by Willis
                > Barnstone, who also was one of the editors of the more recent
                > _The Gnostic Bible_.
                > >
                >
                > Ah, got that on order.
                > Found the "Other Bible" on amazon. Thanks for the help.
                >
                >
                > > I wouldn't get hung up on the term "bible" regarding these
                > two modern collections of various religious texts, although I
                > agree that the connotation can be confusing.
                > >
                >
                > Sometimes I'm too much of a stickler.
                >
                >
                > > They are *not* intended to be compilations of texts for
                > specific religious use with an absolute authoritarian
                > function. In fact, I think the editors of _The Gnostic
                > Bible_ realized misunderstanding that could ensue from use
                > of the word "bible," and they do explain the history and
                > their use of the term in the introduction to the book. They
                > specifically say that "the sacred literature in this Bible
                > constitutes no closed canon."
                > >
                >
                > Good. But the word "Bible" is catchy. Good search term, too.
                >
                > Fair enough.
                >
                >
                > > PMCV's recommendation, _The Nag Hammadi Library_, edited by
                > James M. Robinson, does provide helpful introductions to
                > works. In addition, if you like annotations, you'll find
                > plenty in Bentley Layton's _The Gnostic Scriptures_, which
                > contains selected scriptures.
                > >
                >
                > Thanks for the other reference. I'll look it up on zam-azon.
                > <g>
                >
                >
                > --Michael
                >
              • --Michael
                I was wondering what might have happened. Thanks. Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The workings of Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient
                Message 7 of 24 , May 8 4:02 PM
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                  I was wondering what might have happened. Thanks.

                  Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The workings of
                  Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient Gnostic texts.


                  --Michael


                  --- lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  > Apparently we've been having some serious technical
                  difficulties regarding ability to post. Last week I tried to
                  resend a message Michael attempted to post. Both messages
                  still haven't appeared. I don't know how many other members
                  have had difficulty posting.
                  >
                  > I'm going to try once more to send Michael's reply.
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • Michael Leavitt
                  ... You have to wonder about an organization that names itself after the demented humanoids of Johnathan Swift.
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 8 6:15 PM
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                    --Michael wrote:
                    > I was wondering what might have happened. Thanks.
                    >
                    > Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The workings of
                    > Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient Gnostic texts.
                    >
                    You have to wonder about an organization that names itself after the
                    demented humanoids of Johnathan Swift.
                  • --Michael
                    Indeed. I still remember Festus (Ken Curtis) on Gunsmoke saying yay-hoos. I ve always pronounced it yah-hoo but have been know to refer to it as
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 8 7:17 PM
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                      Indeed.

                      I still remember Festus (Ken Curtis) on Gunsmoke saying
                      "yay-hoos." I've always pronounced it "yah-hoo" but have been
                      know to refer to it as "yah-hooey."

                      Still, Yahoo is head-and-shoulders above MSN Groups. I
                      despise excessive, not to mention garish and tasteless, use
                      of graphics.


                      --Michael


                      --- Michael Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:

                      > --Michael wrote:
                      > > Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. The
                      workings of Ya-Hoo are even more mysterious than ancient
                      Gnostic texts.
                      > >

                      > You have to wonder about an organization that names itself
                      > after the demented humanoids of Johnathan Swift.


                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                    • --Michael
                      I was wondering if there s a significant difference between _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis Barnstone. And also wondering about
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 8 7:21 PM
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                        I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                        _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                        Barnstone.

                        And also wondering about Hoeller's _Gnosticism_. Good, bad,
                        ...?

                        For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                        of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?


                        --Michael




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                      • lady_caritas
                        ... Michael, _The Other Bible_ contains selections of literature (among them some Gnostic writings) from Judeo-Christian traditions that were not included in
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 9 5:13 PM
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                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                          > _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                          > Barnstone.


                          Michael, _The Other Bible_ contains selections of literature (among
                          them some Gnostic writings) from Judeo-Christian traditions that were
                          not included in the orthodox Christian Bible canon.

                          _The Gnostic Bible_ is an anthology of texts the editors have deemed
                          as broadly "gnostic." Some of the literature included is not
                          regarded by various scholars to fit the category of historical
                          Gnosticism, but this literature is often from groups that at least
                          could be considered as related traditions.


                          > And also wondering about Hoeller's _Gnosticism_. Good, bad,
                          > ...?


                          I found Hoeller's book to be an enjoyable read. It's a good
                          introduction, but of course does include some subjective views of his.



                          > For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                          > of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
                          >


                          Very good.


                          Cari
                        • Gerry
                          Hi, Michael. I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I m having some computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my emergency
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 10 10:00 AM
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                            Hi, Michael.

                            I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I'm having some computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my emergency laptop is little consolation.

                             

                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                            > _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                            > Barnstone.

                             

                            One other thing to keep in mind, Michael, is that both The Other Bible and The Gnostic Bible offer abridged versions for some of the translated texts. This is fine for those who are simply looking for an introductory taste of works excluded from their own religious tradition, or for those who prefer a flowing and accessible rendering of some of these diverse and difficult works, but for carefully examining what the Gnostic authors actually sought to convey, one would be well advised to balance those anthologies with Robinson's affordable compilation, The Nag Hammadi Library. I stress "affordable" there because the next step up in my own recommended reading list would be another series edited by Robinson, The Coptic Gnostic Library (the forerunner of the NHL).

                            Since I've broached the subject of "readability" already, it should be mentioned that this is another aspect of Robinson's collection that should be taken into consideration. Personally, I frequently found myself avoiding certain tractates in his book simply because of the numerous lacunae. It's definitely a challenge to read something all the way through when it sometimes seems as if every passage consists of random words interspersed with countless bracketed ellipses. My own copy of the NHL is the first edition, so I was somewhat dismayed just now when I looked up a critique of his revised edition and found that the "new & improved" version was even more conservative (i.e., less fluid). The same reviewer suggested that it would be nice to see yet another revision in which those lacunae are preserved (so that the reader can see where actual gaps and irregularities exist in the extant originals), but where such voids in the text were supplemented with footnotes offering scholarly insight into what they likely contained. Frankly, such a work already exists (inasmuch as it is possible to speculate on filling some of those holes), but it is the more expensive CGL that I referred to above. If anyone here happens to own both editions of the popularly targeted NHL, I would be interested in hearing additional insights regarding differences between the translations presented in these two.



                            >

                            > For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                            > of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
                            >
                            >
                            > --Michael
                            >

                             

                            As Cari said, this is a very good overview of the subject. As always, however, I wouldn't want anyone taking the opinions expressed therein as gospel, and neglecting the more recent research of other scholars in the field. Frankly, there are groups out there who do just that, not only with Rudolph's book, but even the older work of Hans Jonas. Basically, such people read these and seem to conclude that the measure of a Gnostic group is how similarly it resonates with Marcionism. When they get started on their rants, "Old Testament god bad; New Testament God good," it soon comes across as little more than a heavily dualistic, anti-Semitic brand of orthodoxy in which Jesus has still come to rescue us all from a life of sin. The mere concept of anything actually "transcendent" is usually lost on such individuals.  If you run across these people in your Internet travels, you will recognize them immediately.  ;-)

                            Gerry

                          • Michael Leavitt
                            ... -- M. Leavitt
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 10 6:34 PM
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                              Gerry wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi, Michael.
                              >
                              > I might have managed to chime in earlier, but I'm having some
                              > computer difficulties at the moment (on top of everything else), and my
                              > emergency laptop is little consolation.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, --Michael <epsilon717@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> I was wondering if there's a significant difference between
                              >> _The Gnostic Bible_ and _The Other Bible_, both by Willis
                              >> Barnstone.
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > One other thing to keep in mind, Michael, is that both The Other Bible
                              > and The Gnostic Bible offer abridged versions for some of the translated
                              > texts. This is fine for those who are simply looking for an introductory
                              > taste of works excluded from their own religious tradition, or for those
                              > who prefer a flowing and accessible rendering of some of these diverse
                              > and difficult works, but for carefully examining what the Gnostic
                              > authors actually sought to convey, one would be well advised to balance
                              > those anthologies with Robinson's affordable compilation, The Nag
                              > Hammadi Library
                              > <http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=00\
                              > 60669357&itm=1> . I stress "affordable" there because the next step up
                              > in my own recommended reading list would be another series edited by
                              > Robinson, The Coptic Gnostic Library
                              > <http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ISBN=900411\
                              > 7024&pdf=y&z=y> (the forerunner of the NHL).
                              >
                              > Since I've broached the subject of "readability" already, it should
                              > be mentioned that this is another aspect of Robinson's collection
                              > that should be taken into consideration. Personally, I frequently found
                              > myself avoiding certain tractates in his book simply because of the
                              > numerous lacunae. It's definitely a challenge to read something all
                              > the way through when it sometimes seems as if every passage consists of
                              > random words interspersed with countless bracketed ellipses. My own copy
                              > of the NHL is the first edition, so I was somewhat dismayed just now
                              > when I looked up a critique of his revised edition and found that the
                              > "new & improved" version was even more conservative (i.e., less fluid).
                              > The same reviewer suggested that it would be nice to see yet another
                              > revision in which those lacunae are preserved (so that the reader can
                              > see where actual gaps and irregularities exist in the extant originals),
                              > but where such voids in the text were supplemented with footnotes
                              > offering scholarly insight into what they likely contained. Frankly,
                              > such a work already exists (inasmuch as it is possible to speculate on
                              > filling some of those holes), but it is the more expensive CGL that I
                              > referred to above. If anyone here happens to own both editions of the
                              > popularly targeted NHL, I would be interested in hearing additional
                              > insights regarding differences between the translations presented in
                              > these two.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >> For that matter, how about _Gnosis : The Nature and History
                              >> of Gnosticism_ by Kurt Rudolph?
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> --Michael
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > As Cari said, this is a very good overview of the subject. As always,
                              > however, I wouldn't want anyone taking the opinions expressed
                              > therein as gospel, and neglecting the more recent research of other
                              > scholars in the field. Frankly, there are groups out there who do just
                              > that, not only with Rudolph's book, but even the older work of Hans
                              > Jonas. Basically, such people read these and seem to conclude that the
                              > measure of a Gnostic group is how similarly it resonates with
                              > Marcionism. When they get started on their rants, "Old Testament god
                              > bad; New Testament God good," it soon comes across as little more than a
                              > heavily dualistic, anti-Semitic brand of orthodoxy in which Jesus has
                              > still come to rescue us all from a life of sin. The mere concept of
                              > anything actually "transcendent" is usually lost on such individuals.
                              > If you run across these people in your Internet travels, you will
                              > recognize them immediately. ;-)
                              >
                              > Gerry
                              >
                              > Try the wife's, a Compaq Presario 1200, a P-1 peocessor and no USB, of course only one port on this Compaq P-IV 2 gig thing isn't USB. I don't really like that but it is fast, even with Windoze XP pro. Gotta try it with Linux!
                              >
                              --
                              M. Leavitt
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