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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: The Yezidis

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  • debbie wheeler
    pmcvflag wrote: Icybrethovhecate Just because something is exotic and esoteric doesn t mean it is Gnostic . We need to be a bit
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2006
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      pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      Icybrethovhecate

      Just because something is exotic and esoteric doesn't mean it
      is "Gnostic". We need to be a bit critical of certain sources when
      talking about subjects like this. Besides, the equation of Malek Taus
      with "Lucifer" is not accurate. We REALLY have to be careful about
      glossing things in this way.

      The so called "Peacock Angel" or "King Peacock" is a motif in a
      religion that was only given "Biblical" contexts of the sort you
      mention as an attack.

      Neither the Yezidis, nor the Mandaeans (since you previously mentioned
      them), are technically Gnostic.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "icybrethovhecate"
      <icybrethovhecate@...> wrote:
      >
      > Another religion from Iraq.  The Yezidis believe that God created a
      > great pearl at the begining of time and placed it on the back of a
      huge
      > bird, after this he created Lucifer(Melek Taus) and his hordes of
      > angels.  He(God) then retreated from the universe and left creation
      to
      > Lucifer who broke open the pearl and made everything.  Lucifer is
      > regarded as fallen but capable of redemption and is depicted as a
      > peacock because of his pride and association with the sun.  As a sun-
      > god, Lucifer represents good and evil, fire as light and fire as
      burn. 
      > Supposbly all humans have a piece of Lucifer in their own souls, and
      > those who follow him will be rewarded in the world to come.
      >


      I would welcome a lengthier response please to the highlighted line. Could you please elucidate why neither the mandaeans nor the Yezidis are 'technically' gnostic groups.
       
      Thanks.




      Mer248lina


      Win tickets to the 2006 FIFA World Cup Germany with Yahoo! Messenger.

    • pmcvflag
      Hey Mer248lina ... line. Could you please elucidate why neither the mandaeans nor the Yezidis are technically gnostic groups.
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2006
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        Hey Mer248lina

        >>>I would welcome a lengthier response please to the highlighted
        line. Could you please elucidate why neither the mandaeans nor the
        Yezidis are 'technically' gnostic groups.<<<

        Well, perhaps it is easier to raise the question of what exactly
        would make them "Gnostic" in the more technical sense. I know that
        right now it is a vogue to talk about everything esoteric
        as "Gnostic", and any kind of lesser known middle eastern religion
        gets thrown in, and anything mystical as well.

        I am not trying to be a "focus fascist" here *lol*, I think some of
        these groups certainly have enough in common to make them of interest
        here. For instance, even though the Sufis are not technically
        Gnostics, the conversation about them certainly was of interest here.
        Instead I am trying to keep the issue of categorization in the
        conversation here so that people do understand that this forum is
        much more specific than the other two hundred or so Yahoo groups on
        Gnosticism.

        A number of recent scholarly works, including "Rethinking Gnosticism"
        by Williams, and "What is Gnosticism?" by King have raised important
        issues with just what the historical category of "Gnosticism"
        technically is. Many groups that used to be lumped into the category,
        such as Manichaeans, Mandaeans, Marcionites and Cathars don't
        actually fit.

        The Mandaeans were thrown in the category of "Gnosticism" initially
        by E. Drower, who said she did so based on the influence of a friend.
        She stated that at the time she didn't know much about Gnosticism
        (her specialty was the Mid East, not Gnosticism), and after more
        study she realized that this categorization was false. Much of the
        categorization was based on the name "Mandaean", which was actually
        not even a name these people used for themselves. There was also a
        bit of a hasty generalization of thier soteriology that turned out to
        not be completely accurate. The initial categorization was then
        repeated by people like Robinson who specialized in Gnosticism, but
        not necessarily clear on the Mandaean belief system.

        I have heard that as they have been in diaspora, many of the Mandaean
        youth have taken up the "Gnostic" label and have actually become
        closer to Gnostic thinking by mixing the religions a little.

        Initially though, Mandaeans are not Platonists, and they don't
        believe that "Gnosis" is salvation (a critical attribute for
        something to be "Gnostic"). In the absence of such a defining
        attribute, the question would be why would we categorize them
        as "Gnostic" at all? The answer is that now scholars of this subject
        generally don't.

        Yezidis were never categorized as "Gnostic" in the first place. Why
        would they be?

        PMCV
      • icybrethovhecate
        Melek Taus is definetly Lucifer, I don t know what your talking about. His name is Melek Taus(black peacock) because he is as proud as a peacock and he s a
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1, 2006
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          Melek Taus is definetly Lucifer, I don't know what your talking
          about. His name is Melek Taus(black peacock) because he is "as proud
          as a peacock" and he's a sun-god(a peacock with spreaded tail
          feathers is a symbol of the sun). His secret name is Shaitan(Satan)
          which the Yezidis are forbidden to speak. His color is blue, as
          Lucifer's color. And like Lucifer, he is fallen and has an evil
          aspect(remember, he is fir as light and fire as burn). Read more on
          Yezidism before you make claims. And yes, the Yezidis are Gnostic,
          they believe that Lucifer(Melek Taus) is the Demiurge, and they value
          knowledge rather than faith as the means of salvation(remember, it is
          Lucifer who told Adam and Eve to eat from The Tree of Knowledge).
          Theyn also honor Jesus. And the Mandeans are included in my Gnostic
          Bible, so their Gnostic as well. Personally, I am a Luciferian and I
          like the Yezidis even if I don't agree with all their beliefs.
          http://n.webring.com/hub?ring=luciferiangnosis,
          http://home.earthlink.net/~xristos/GoldenDawn/yezidi01.htm,
          http://www.sacred-texts.com/asia/sby/,
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Church_of_the_Peacock_Angel/,
          http://www.churchofsatan.org/peacock.html


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey Mer248lina
          >
          > >>>I would welcome a lengthier response please to the highlighted
          > line. Could you please elucidate why neither the mandaeans nor the
          > Yezidis are 'technically' gnostic groups.<<<
          >
          > Well, perhaps it is easier to raise the question of what exactly
          > would make them "Gnostic" in the more technical sense. I know that
          > right now it is a vogue to talk about everything esoteric
          > as "Gnostic", and any kind of lesser known middle eastern religion
          > gets thrown in, and anything mystical as well.
          >
          > I am not trying to be a "focus fascist" here *lol*, I think some of
          > these groups certainly have enough in common to make them of
          interest
          > here. For instance, even though the Sufis are not technically
          > Gnostics, the conversation about them certainly was of interest
          here.
          > Instead I am trying to keep the issue of categorization in the
          > conversation here so that people do understand that this forum is
          > much more specific than the other two hundred or so Yahoo groups on
          > Gnosticism.
          >
          > A number of recent scholarly works, including "Rethinking
          Gnosticism"
          > by Williams, and "What is Gnosticism?" by King have raised
          important
          > issues with just what the historical category of "Gnosticism"
          > technically is. Many groups that used to be lumped into the
          category,
          > such as Manichaeans, Mandaeans, Marcionites and Cathars don't
          > actually fit.
          >
          > The Mandaeans were thrown in the category of "Gnosticism" initially
          > by E. Drower, who said she did so based on the influence of a
          friend.
          > She stated that at the time she didn't know much about Gnosticism
          > (her specialty was the Mid East, not Gnosticism), and after more
          > study she realized that this categorization was false. Much of the
          > categorization was based on the name "Mandaean", which was actually
          > not even a name these people used for themselves. There was also a
          > bit of a hasty generalization of thier soteriology that turned out
          to
          > not be completely accurate. The initial categorization was then
          > repeated by people like Robinson who specialized in Gnosticism, but
          > not necessarily clear on the Mandaean belief system.
          >
          > I have heard that as they have been in diaspora, many of the
          Mandaean
          > youth have taken up the "Gnostic" label and have actually become
          > closer to Gnostic thinking by mixing the religions a little.
          >
          > Initially though, Mandaeans are not Platonists, and they don't
          > believe that "Gnosis" is salvation (a critical attribute for
          > something to be "Gnostic"). In the absence of such a defining
          > attribute, the question would be why would we categorize them
          > as "Gnostic" at all? The answer is that now scholars of this
          subject
          > generally don't.
          >
          > Yezidis were never categorized as "Gnostic" in the first place. Why
          > would they be?
          >
          > PMCV
          >
        • Will
          Ah comon man, where have you been studying? JoS? the color blue? The Yezidi say Melek Taus (btw, Melek does not mean black, it means king) is the demiurge, but
          Message 4 of 9 , May 1, 2006
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            Ah comon man, where have you been studying? JoS? the color blue? The
            Yezidi say Melek Taus (btw, Melek does not mean black, it means king)
            is the demiurge, but as for Lucifer...they only say that he is Azazel,
            or Shaitan. So yes, the surrounding evironment labels them devil
            worshippers, but Lucifer is a rather elusive term... not very easily
            used here. But Yezidi as Gnostic? That's pretty silly to me. If
            anything, neo-gnostic... but even then, it doesn't really fit. Even
            though they see Melek Taus as the Demiurge, that doesn't mean
            anything. Jews and Christians believe YHWH is the demiurge, but that
            doesn't make them Gnostic. It would help your case a little if this
            demiurge was keepin the man down, especially for something Sethian,
            but that isn't the case... and even then, it would totally wipe out
            your arguement.

            As for them holding faith over knowledge, that simply can't be true.
            Think about what faith is: Even though everyone around them is against
            them, they are still faithful to Melek Taus. All the religions have
            their knowledge, but it's different with their faith. For example,
            it's hard to go to war and fight, but people look up to someone who
            fights to protect their country(I mean, pre-Iraq deal), and it can
            keep you going. But what if as a man, you dress up as a woman and walk
            around town? Everyone automatically turns against you. How much
            strength would you have then? Everyone around the Yezidi antagonizes
            them. So as you can see, faith is an integral part of Yezidi culture.
            Even more so than their "knowledge".



            http://www.judstud.se/img/events/Melek%20Taus.jpg

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "icybrethovhecate"
            <icybrethovhecate@...> wrote:
            >
            > Melek Taus is definetly Lucifer, I don't know what your talking
            > about. His name is Melek Taus(black peacock) because he is "as proud
            > as a peacock" and he's a sun-god(a peacock with spreaded tail
            > feathers is a symbol of the sun). His secret name is Shaitan(Satan)
            > which the Yezidis are forbidden to speak. His color is blue, as
            > Lucifer's color. And like Lucifer, he is fallen and has an evil
            > aspect(remember, he is fir as light and fire as burn). Read more on
            > Yezidism before you make claims. And yes, the Yezidis are Gnostic,
            > they believe that Lucifer(Melek Taus) is the Demiurge, and they value
            > knowledge rather than faith as the means of salvation(remember, it is
            > Lucifer who told Adam and Eve to eat from The Tree of Knowledge).
            > Theyn also honor Jesus. And the Mandeans are included in my Gnostic
            > Bible, so their Gnostic as well. Personally, I am a Luciferian and I
            > like the Yezidis even if I don't agree with all their beliefs.
            > http://n.webring.com/hub?ring=luciferiangnosis,
            > http://home.earthlink.net/~xristos/GoldenDawn/yezidi01.htm,
            > http://www.sacred-texts.com/asia/sby/,
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Church_of_the_Peacock_Angel/,
            > http://www.churchofsatan.org/peacock.html
            >
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hey Mer248lina
            > >
            > > >>>I would welcome a lengthier response please to the highlighted
            > > line. Could you please elucidate why neither the mandaeans nor the
            > > Yezidis are 'technically' gnostic groups.<<<
            > >
            > > Well, perhaps it is easier to raise the question of what exactly
            > > would make them "Gnostic" in the more technical sense. I know that
            > > right now it is a vogue to talk about everything esoteric
            > > as "Gnostic", and any kind of lesser known middle eastern religion
            > > gets thrown in, and anything mystical as well.
            > >
            > > I am not trying to be a "focus fascist" here *lol*, I think some of
            > > these groups certainly have enough in common to make them of
            > interest
            > > here. For instance, even though the Sufis are not technically
            > > Gnostics, the conversation about them certainly was of interest
            > here.
            > > Instead I am trying to keep the issue of categorization in the
            > > conversation here so that people do understand that this forum is
            > > much more specific than the other two hundred or so Yahoo groups on
            > > Gnosticism.
            > >
            > > A number of recent scholarly works, including "Rethinking
            > Gnosticism"
            > > by Williams, and "What is Gnosticism?" by King have raised
            > important
            > > issues with just what the historical category of "Gnosticism"
            > > technically is. Many groups that used to be lumped into the
            > category,
            > > such as Manichaeans, Mandaeans, Marcionites and Cathars don't
            > > actually fit.
            > >
            > > The Mandaeans were thrown in the category of "Gnosticism" initially
            > > by E. Drower, who said she did so based on the influence of a
            > friend.
            > > She stated that at the time she didn't know much about Gnosticism
            > > (her specialty was the Mid East, not Gnosticism), and after more
            > > study she realized that this categorization was false. Much of the
            > > categorization was based on the name "Mandaean", which was actually
            > > not even a name these people used for themselves. There was also a
            > > bit of a hasty generalization of thier soteriology that turned out
            > to
            > > not be completely accurate. The initial categorization was then
            > > repeated by people like Robinson who specialized in Gnosticism, but
            > > not necessarily clear on the Mandaean belief system.
            > >
            > > I have heard that as they have been in diaspora, many of the
            > Mandaean
            > > youth have taken up the "Gnostic" label and have actually become
            > > closer to Gnostic thinking by mixing the religions a little.
            > >
            > > Initially though, Mandaeans are not Platonists, and they don't
            > > believe that "Gnosis" is salvation (a critical attribute for
            > > something to be "Gnostic"). In the absence of such a defining
            > > attribute, the question would be why would we categorize them
            > > as "Gnostic" at all? The answer is that now scholars of this
            > subject
            > > generally don't.
            > >
            > > Yezidis were never categorized as "Gnostic" in the first place. Why
            > > would they be?
            > >
            > > PMCV
            > >
            >
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Icybrethovhecate ... about. His name is Melek Taus(black peacock) because he is as proud as a peacock and he s a sun-god(a peacock with spreaded tail
            Message 5 of 9 , May 1, 2006
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              Hey Icybrethovhecate

              >>Melek Taus is definetly Lucifer, I don't know what your talking
              about. His name is Melek Taus(black peacock) because he is "as proud
              as a peacock" and he's a sun-god(a peacock with spreaded tail
              feathers is a symbol of the sun). His secret name is Shaitan(Satan)
              which the Yezidis are forbidden to speak. His color is blue, as
              Lucifer's color. And like Lucifer, he is fallen and has an evil
              aspect(remember, he is fir as light and fire as burn). Read more on
              Yezidism before you make claims.<<<

              It isn't that I haven't read anything on Yezidis, it is just that
              you and I have been reading different sources. I have to side with
              Will on this one... the sources you site in order to demonstrate
              your point seem questionable to me. Melek Taus doesn't mean "Black
              Peacock", and I am not aware of any critical historian that would
              agree with the notion that the Yezidis have been around for 4000
              years. Another site you list is nothing more than a copy of Isya's
              hopelessly outdated book... again full of questionable information.

              I am not trying to be adversarial here, but I think we should be a
              bit more questioning of our sources... don't you? I think I would
              rather take my info from more academic sources in this case rather
              than sensationalist occult resources.

              As with the Mandaeans, much of the early direct academic info on the
              Yezidis comes from E. Drower. It is of note that she believes the
              term "seiten" (or shaytan, etc.) enters the Yezidi lingo initially
              as an attack, and the reason Yazidis are forbidden to state the name
              is partly because it sounded superficially like a name they already
              had and they did not want thier god cursed with the equation.

              "Indeed, it is possibly the Yazidis themselves, by tabooing all
              mention of the name Shaitan, or Satan, as a libel upon this angel,
              who have fostered the idea that the Peacock Angel is identical with
              the dark fallen angel whom men call the Tempter." (E.Drower "Peacock
              Angel")

              She reports posing the question to a qawwal, point blank, and being
              told that the equation was a mistake.

              If you look in Isya's "Black Book" (which we don't know to be real,
              for sure... but you gave us a link to), you will actually see that
              it directly states that the name Satan is avoided because
              it "resembles" the name of thier god.

              Now, of course it is up to you whether you believe any one resource
              here more than another, but I think that there is enough evidence
              contrary to the usual occult line to at least warrent some
              scepticism. If you don't like what I say, at least allow for the
              possibility that I may not be completely ignorant. Since you are now
              talking in a community that values some academic perspective, try to
              allow that academic perspective have a place in your side of the
              conversation as well. I question your RESOURCES, not YOU.... please
              have the same respect.

              >>>And yes, the Yezidis are Gnostic, they believe that Lucifer(Melek
              Taus) is the Demiurge, and they value knowledge rather than faith as
              the means of salvation(remember, it is Lucifer who told Adam and Eve
              to eat from The Tree of Knowledge). Theyn also honor Jesus. And the
              Mandeans are included in my Gnostic Bible, so their Gnostic as
              well. Personally, I am a Luciferian and I like the Yezidis even if
              I don't agree with all their beliefs.<<<

              The so called "Gnostic Bible" contains many texts that scholars
              don't consider to be Gnostic. Even one of the book's editors, Dr
              Meyer, would surely tell you in retrospect that some of the texts
              are not technically "Gnostic". In fact, Dr Meyer states more
              recently in his essay for the Gospel of Judas that the category
              of "gnostic" is defined by a direct relation to Sethian beliefs. In
              other words, one of the compilers of your "Gnostic Bible" has
              perhaps become even more strict than ME in using this term.... and
              obviously can not consider some of the texts in his own book to
              be "Gnostic".

              If you go around saying that just because it is in the compilation
              called "The Gnostic Bible" it must be "Gnostic", it is almost like
              the Christians who say "the Bible says it so it must be true". The
              Gnostics had NO "Bible".... so don't take the "Gnostic Bible" too
              seriously.

              BTW, "Lucifer" enters our language as a mistranslation in the Latin
              Vulgate concerning the king of Babylon in Psalms. I doubt whether
              the average Yezidi has even heard the term. The Bible doesn't say
              that "Lucifer" tempted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of
              knowledge (not that we care what the Bible says *lol*)

              PMCV
            • debbie wheeler
              pmcvflag wrote: Hey Mer248lina ... line. Could you please elucidate why neither the mandaeans nor the Yezidis are technically
              Message 6 of 9 , May 2, 2006
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                pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                Hey Mer248lina

                >>>I would welcome a lengthier response please to the highlighted
                line. Could you please elucidate why neither the mandaeans nor the
                Yezidis are 'technically' gnostic groups.<<<

                Well, perhaps it is easier to raise the question of what exactly
                would make them "Gnostic" in the more technical sense. I know that
                right now it is a vogue to talk about everything esoteric
                as "Gnostic", and any kind of lesser known middle eastern religion
                gets thrown in, and anything mystical as well.

                I am not trying to be a "focus fascist" here *lol*, I think some of
                these groups certainly have enough in common to make them of interest
                here. For instance, even though the Sufis are not technically
                Gnostics, the conversation about them certainly was of interest here.
                Instead I am trying to keep the issue of categorization in the
                conversation here so that people do understand that this forum is
                much more specific than the other two hundred or so Yahoo groups on
                Gnosticism.

                A number of recent scholarly works, including "Rethinking Gnosticism"
                by Williams, and "What is Gnosticism?" by King have raised important
                issues with just what the historical category of "Gnosticism"
                technically is. Many groups that used to be lumped into the category,
                such as Manichaeans, Mandaeans, Marcionites and Cathars don't
                actually fit.

                The Mandaeans were thrown in the category of "Gnosticism" initially
                by E. Drower, who said she did so based on the influence of a friend.
                She stated that at the time she didn't know much about Gnosticism
                (her specialty was the Mid East, not Gnosticism), and after more
                study she realized that this categorization was false. Much of the
                categorization was based on the name "Mandaean", which was actually
                not even a name these people used for themselves. There was also a
                bit of a hasty generalization of thier soteriology that turned out to
                not be completely accurate. The initial categorization was then
                repeated by people like Robinson who specialized in Gnosticism, but
                not necessarily clear on the Mandaean belief system.

                I have heard that as they have been in diaspora, many of the Mandaean
                youth have taken up the "Gnostic" label and have actually become
                closer to Gnostic thinking by mixing the religions a little.

                Initially though, Mandaeans are not Platonists, and they don't
                believe that "Gnosis" is salvation (a critical attribute for
                something to be "Gnostic"). In the absence of such a defining
                attribute, the question would be why would we categorize them
                as "Gnostic" at all? The answer is that now scholars of this subject
                generally don't.

                Yezidis were never categorized as "Gnostic" in the first place. Why
                would they be?

                PMCV
                 
                Thanks pm, now you've given me a load of work to do lol. Have to verify what you've said about Salvation, gnosis and mandeans.





                Mer248lina


                Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets.
              • Will
                ... http://www.judstud.se/img/events/Melek%20Taus.jpg ---take a look This depiction of Melek Taus shows his tail feather eyes extending out in a solar symbol
                Message 7 of 9 , May 2, 2006
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, other guy <no_reply@...> wrote:

                  >> >>...he's a sun-god(a peacock with spreaded tail
                  >> feathers is a symbol of the sun).

                  http://www.judstud.se/img/events/Melek%20Taus.jpg ---take a look

                  This depiction of Melek Taus shows his tail feather eyes extending out
                  in a solar symbol because of the number of eyes (twelve). The roots of
                  the eyes of the feathers are seven in number, and denote the planets
                  of the ancients, which are numbered from the supernal triad - the
                  three feathers springing from the birds head. dividing the image in
                  half, is the Moon, representing opposites, while He stands on the
                  Earth symbol as a foot stool. The Sumerian symbol to the left, the
                  star, represents a god. The rest of it says something like, "created
                  in light and darkness" or something of that nature.

                  >>His secret name is Shaitan(Satan) which the Yezidis are forbidden to
                  speak.

                  You're forgetting these are Iraqi Kurds. That word is probably not in
                  their original vocabulary from "4,000 years ago, when they started
                  this religion" as one of your sources says(*snicker*). It's probably a
                  label that an outside culture gave their deity. Probably somewhere
                  from a short distance west? Speaking of origins, Most scholars agree
                  that the Yezidi are an evolution of Zoroastrianism and Mithraism. Want
                  sources? Go find them, there's plenty of material out there. Try not
                  to use keywords like "Lord Lucifer" in the search though...just a tip.

                  >> And like Lucifer, he is fallen and has an evil
                  >> aspect(remember, he is fir as light and fire as burn).

                  How is that evil? Those are just attributes of the Sun (the whole
                  "fire as light and fire and burn").
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