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Templars and Abraxas

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  • Jason Fletcher
    93..I had a couple thoughts on that. ... This I would like to hear more about...do you have a refrence point for how the ancient Gnostics used the word? ... As
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 12, 2006
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      93..I had a couple thoughts on that.
       
      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
       
      > One subject we always like to encourage modern esoteric
      > practitioners who are interested in the ancient Gnostics to explore,
      > is whether they actually mean the same thing when they use the
      > word "Gnosis". It may be surprising to you, but we have found that
      > actually very few people use the word in the same way as the ancient
      > Gnostics did.

      This I would like to hear more about...do you have a refrence point for how the ancient Gnostics used the word?

      > >>>I can also say that the connection between Crowley and Ancient
      > Gnosticism happens through the Templars to the best of my
      > understanding.<<<
      >
      > Well, there is speculation in
      books like the "Da Vinci Code" about
      > some kind of connection between the Templars and the ancient
      > Gnostics. I also know that some people (like Eliphas Levi)
      > speculated on a Gnostic origin of terms like "Baphomet". Historians
      > generally discount this kind of speculation, and I have to say I am
      > very cautious about it. Not that I am against any possibilities,
      > just that I think it is important to be critical when we find that
      > the evidence isn't really adding up to the claim. You are welcome to
      > bring up the evidences that you feel are important for discussion
      > here as long as they also relate to historical Gnosticism.
       
       
      As far as the "Da Vinci Code" goes I haven't read it. I know it is all the rage (my wife is reading it right now). Maybe I will see the movie. As far as the Gnostic connection to the Templars goes the key word that comes to my mind is Abraxas...which I understand is a Gnostic god thought to be connected to the Templars....I will say that I don't exactly remember my source on that one. I am thinking maybe it was the  Equinox 3:10??.... The conversation has been stimulating. Blessings-R


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    • Gerry
      ... for how the ancient Gnostics used the word? ... Here s something from our Links section that may be of
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 12, 2006
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fletcher <mr_natural_93@...> wrote:

        >
        > [ . . . ]
        >
        > This I would like to hear more about...do you have a refrence point for how the > ancient Gnostics used the word?
        >

         

        Here's something from our Links section that may be of use with the Gnostic terminology you encounter:

        http://www.geocities.com/pmcvflag/lexicon.html

        Maybe one day when we have time on our hands, we'll get around to updating PMCV's lexicon.

        Gerry

      • Fletcher
        Thank you for the link. Very informative-R
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 12, 2006
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          Thank you for the link. Very informative-R


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fletcher <mr_natural_93@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > [ . . . ]
          > >
          > > This I would like to hear more about...do you have a refrence point
          > for how the > ancient Gnostics used the word?
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Here's something from our Links section
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/links> that may be of use
          > with the Gnostic terminology you encounter:
          >
          > http://www.geocities.com/pmcvflag/lexicon.html
          > <http://www.geocities.com/pmcvflag/lexicon.html>
          >
          > Maybe one day when we have time on our hands, we'll get around to
          > updating PMCV's lexicon.
          >
          > Gerry
          >
        • pmcvflag
          Hey Jason ... for how the ancient Gnostics used the word?
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 12, 2006
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            Hey Jason

            >>>This I would like to hear more about...do you have a refrence point
            for how the ancient Gnostics used the word?<<<

            I'm glad the link that Gerry gave was helpful. Outside of that the
            definition of the word has been an ongoing discussion. My initial
            point was in reference to the fact that many people equate "Gnosis"
            with the mystical experience or with modern notions
            of "enlightenment". In contrast, the historical meaning also contained
            certain intellectual (philosophical or doctrinal) attributes, as well
            as specific initiation motifs.

            >>>As far as the "Da Vinci Code" goes I haven't read it. I know it is
            all the rage (my wife is reading it right now). Maybe I will see the
            movie. As far as the Gnostic connection to the Templars goes the key
            word that comes to my mind is Abraxas...which I understand is a
            Gnostic god thought to be connected to the Templars....I will say that
            I don't exactly remember my source on that one. I am thinking maybe it
            was the Equinox 3:10??.... The conversation has been stimulating.
            Blessings-R<<<

            Hmmm. Well, Templars are not my historical specialty, but I do know
            something about them. However, I must admit that I can't remember a
            single historical source in which the term "Abraxas" is used by any
            Templars. If you do find the source, I will be interested to hear it.
            I do have to say that without knowing the source I think maybe we
            should be wary about the accuracy of the claim.

            Are you sure you don't mean Baphomet? WE have some instances in the
            era of the Templars in which the name "Baphomet" was used as a
            corruption of the name Mohammed. As I mentioned previously, I know
            that some occultists have tried to connect the name to the Gnostics.
            Well, just a thought.... perhaps you are thinking of some other source
            that I don't know about. I'll have to put it on the back burner
            pending further info.

            PMCV
          • Jason Fletcher
            I am sure I dont mean Baphomet. pmcvflag wrote: Hey Jason ... for how the ancient Gnostics used the word?
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 13, 2006
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              I am sure I dont mean Baphomet.

              pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              Hey Jason

              >>>This I would like to hear more about...do you have a refrence point
              for how the ancient Gnostics used the word?<<<

              I'm glad the link that Gerry gave was helpful. Outside of that the
              definition of the word has been an ongoing discussion. My initial
              point was in reference to the fact that many people equate "Gnosis"
              with the mystical experience or with modern notions
              of "enlightenment". In contrast, the historical meaning also contained
              certain intellectual (philosophical or doctrinal) attributes, as well
              as specific initiation motifs.

              >>>As far as the "Da Vinci Code" goes I haven't read it. I know it is
              all the rage (my wife is reading it right now). Maybe I will see the
              movie. As far as the Gnostic connection to the Templars goes the key
              word that comes to my mind is Abraxas...which I understand is a
              Gnostic god thought to be connected to the Templars....I will say that
              I don't exactly remember my source on that one. I am thinking maybe it
              was the  Equinox 3:10??.... The conversation has been stimulating.
              Blessings-R<<<

              Hmmm. Well, Templars are not my historical specialty, but I do know
              something about them. However, I must admit that I can't remember a
              single historical source in which the term "Abraxas" is used by any
              Templars. If you do find the source, I will be interested to hear it.
              I do have to say that without knowing the source I think maybe we
              should be wary about the accuracy of the claim.

              Are you sure you don't mean Baphomet? WE have some instances in the
              era of the Templars in which the name "Baphomet" was used as a
              corruption of the name Mohammed. As I mentioned previously, I know
              that some occultists have tried to connect the name to the Gnostics.
              Well, just a thought.... perhaps you are thinking of some other source
              that I don't know about. I'll have to put it on the back burner
              pending further info.

              PMCV





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            • icybrethovhecate
              Baphomet comes from the Greek words Bapho and Metis , meaning absorbing knowledge . I know that Abraxas is similar to Baphomet, in that he represents good
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 13, 2006
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                Baphomet comes from the Greek words "Bapho" and "Metis",
                meaning "absorbing knowledge". I know that Abraxas is similar to
                Baphomet, in that he represents good and evil and rules over this
                world. But not sure about much else. The letters in the name
                Abraxas add up 365 , corresponding with the 365 heavens and the days
                of the year, because of this the name is thought to contain magical
                powers and to be the source for the word Abracadabra.


                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fletcher
                <mr_natural_93@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am sure I dont mean Baphomet.
                >
                > pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hey Jason
                >
                > >>>This I would like to hear more about...do you have a refrence
                point
                > for how the ancient Gnostics used the word?<<<
                >
                > I'm glad the link that Gerry gave was helpful. Outside of that
                the
                > definition of the word has been an ongoing discussion. My initial
                > point was in reference to the fact that many people
                equate "Gnosis"
                > with the mystical experience or with modern notions
                > of "enlightenment". In contrast, the historical meaning also
                contained
                > certain intellectual (philosophical or doctrinal) attributes, as
                well
                > as specific initiation motifs.
                >
                > >>>As far as the "Da Vinci Code" goes I haven't read it. I know
                it is
                > all the rage (my wife is reading it right now). Maybe I will see
                the
                > movie. As far as the Gnostic connection to the Templars goes the
                key
                > word that comes to my mind is Abraxas...which I understand is a
                > Gnostic god thought to be connected to the Templars....I will say
                that
                > I don't exactly remember my source on that one. I am thinking
                maybe it
                > was the Equinox 3:10??.... The conversation has been
                stimulating.
                > Blessings-R<<<
                >
                > Hmmm. Well, Templars are not my historical specialty, but I do
                know
                > something about them. However, I must admit that I can't remember
                a
                > single historical source in which the term "Abraxas" is used by
                any
                > Templars. If you do find the source, I will be interested to hear
                it.
                > I do have to say that without knowing the source I think maybe we
                > should be wary about the accuracy of the claim.
                >
                > Are you sure you don't mean Baphomet? WE have some instances in
                the
                > era of the Templars in which the name "Baphomet" was used as a
                > corruption of the name Mohammed. As I mentioned previously, I
                know
                > that some occultists have tried to connect the name to the
                Gnostics.
                > Well, just a thought.... perhaps you are thinking of some other
                source
                > that I don't know about. I'll have to put it on the back burner
                > pending further info.
                >
                > PMCV
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • pmcvflag
                Hey Jason ... Oh, ok. Well, let me know if you remember the source. PMCV
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 13, 2006
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                  Hey Jason

                  >>I am sure I dont mean Baphomet.<<<

                  Oh, ok. Well, let me know if you remember the source.

                  PMCV
                • pmcvflag
                  Hey Icybrethovhecate ... meaning absorbing knowledge . I know that Abraxas is similar to Baphomet, in that he represents good and evil and rules over this
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 13, 2006
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                    Hey Icybrethovhecate

                    >>>Baphomet comes from the Greek words "Bapho" and "Metis",
                    meaning "absorbing knowledge". I know that Abraxas is similar to
                    Baphomet, in that he represents good and evil and rules over this
                    world. But not sure about much else. The letters in the name
                    Abraxas add up 365 , corresponding with the 365 heavens and the days
                    of the year, because of this the name is thought to contain magical
                    powers and to be the source for the word Abracadabra.<<<

                    Yes, I know that this is the etymology for Baphomet that modern
                    occultists (esp. Thelemites) tend to use. However, it was created by
                    Eliphas Levi in modern times for the sake of his occult ideas, and it
                    isn't the actual historical meaning of the word. When talking about
                    historical movements we have to be careful that modern versions of
                    terms like this not be foisted backwards in time, an anachronism.

                    The 19th century occult vogue was filled with sensationalism and
                    misinformation about history and etymology. Without this modern
                    reworking of the term, it looses all connection to historical
                    Gnosticism. Personally, I think traditional Gnosticism is interesting
                    and mysterious enough without having to create connections to incite
                    popular imagination. Levi and Dan Brown have much in common here.

                    The version that you give of Abrasax (abraxas) is the one the
                    heresiologists give for the being in Basilides' system. It is
                    interesting to note that when the name comes up in the surviving
                    Gnostic texts, it is actually as one of the four light beings.

                    PMCV
                  • icybrethovhecate
                    Now couldnt Baphomets dual-sexuality be a reference to Hermes god or the Demiurge? As to where the goat head come from, I m not sure. However, one name for
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 13, 2006
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                      Now couldnt Baphomets dual-sexuality be a reference to Hermes' god or
                      the Demiurge? As to where the goat head come from, I'm not sure.
                      However, one name for Baphomet is the "Goat of Mendes" which was a
                      god worhsiped by the Egyptains, actually a ram. So it probably has
                      it source in the Earth-worshiping Pagan faiths. I don't however see
                      why it couldnt be a symbol for the Demiurge as Gods agent on Earth.
                      The hands form an ancient symbol which means "As above, so below". I
                      haven read much on Abraxas, but I seem to recall his role in the
                      writings of Basilides as that of the Demiurge.




                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Icybrethovhecate
                      >
                      > >>>Baphomet comes from the Greek words "Bapho" and "Metis",
                      > meaning "absorbing knowledge". I know that Abraxas is similar to
                      > Baphomet, in that he represents good and evil and rules over this
                      > world. But not sure about much else. The letters in the name
                      > Abraxas add up 365 , corresponding with the 365 heavens and the days
                      > of the year, because of this the name is thought to contain magical
                      > powers and to be the source for the word Abracadabra.<<<
                      >
                      > Yes, I know that this is the etymology for Baphomet that modern
                      > occultists (esp. Thelemites) tend to use. However, it was created
                      by
                      > Eliphas Levi in modern times for the sake of his occult ideas, and
                      it
                      > isn't the actual historical meaning of the word. When talking about
                      > historical movements we have to be careful that modern versions of
                      > terms like this not be foisted backwards in time, an anachronism.
                      >
                      > The 19th century occult vogue was filled with sensationalism and
                      > misinformation about history and etymology. Without this modern
                      > reworking of the term, it looses all connection to historical
                      > Gnosticism. Personally, I think traditional Gnosticism is
                      interesting
                      > and mysterious enough without having to create connections to
                      incite
                      > popular imagination. Levi and Dan Brown have much in common here.
                      >
                      > The version that you give of Abrasax (abraxas) is the one the
                      > heresiologists give for the being in Basilides' system. It is
                      > interesting to note that when the name comes up in the surviving
                      > Gnostic texts, it is actually as one of the four light beings.
                      >
                      > PMCV
                      >
                    • pmcvflag
                      Icybrethovhecate ... or the Demiurge?
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 14, 2006
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                        Icybrethovhecate

                        >>>Now couldnt Baphomets dual-sexuality be a reference to Hermes' god
                        or the Demiurge?<<<

                        Sure, we could make any meaning we want out of it. The "dual-
                        sexuality" that Levi gives his invented image of "Baphomet" could
                        certainly be compared to Hermetic and Gnostic images. He borrows from
                        Gnostic thinking in order to create his image, after all. The
                        historical problem here is that this "dual-sexuality" is was not given
                        to the term "Baphomet" originally. It is completely a modern invention
                        to make these equations.

                        >>>As to where the goat head come from, I'm not sure. However, one
                        name for Baphomet is the "Goat of Mendes" which was a god worhsiped by
                        the Egyptains, actually a ram.<<<

                        Again, largely modern invention.

                        >>>So it probably has it source in the Earth-worshiping Pagan
                        faiths.<<<

                        Hmmmm, depends on what you mean by "Pagan faiths". The term itself is
                        rife with polemic. If you think about it, historical Gnostics did not
                        give much value to the material "Earth", so the equation with "Earth-
                        worshiping Pagan faiths" should raise some red flags for any logical
                        thinker. It should pretty easily demonstrate that the persons who came
                        up with the equation (Levi and Crowley) didn't understand Gnosticism
                        very well.

                        >>>I don't however see why it couldnt be a symbol for the Demiurge as
                        Gods agent on Earth. The hands form an ancient symbol which means "As
                        above, so below". I haven read much on Abraxas, but I seem to recall
                        his role in the writings of Basilides as that of the Demiurge.<<<

                        Well, exactly how Basilides saw "Abraxas" is debatable, historically
                        speaking. There are problems with the accounts we have. However, you
                        could very well be right that in Basilides' system the term Abrasax
                        was used to mean the Demiurge (as some sources claim). The problem
                        comes from the fact that we don't actually have any of the writings of
                        Basilides today. We only know them from his enemies. The writings we
                        do have that use the term do not agree with those enemies.

                        Imagine for a moment that the only version we had of Crowley was from
                        Evangelical Christian sources because the rest had been destroyed.
                        Would you trust them? Here is the funny ironic part... Crowley and
                        Levi based their own systems off of versions of Gnosticism that they
                        got from authors who we now KNOW lied. After that, they then gave
                        their own speculations about word origins and methodolgy that we now
                        know had NOTHING to do with the actual historical origins. Should you
                        really believe them? Is it any better to be gullible for Crowley than
                        it is for Evangelical Christianity?

                        The question would become whether a person wants to understand
                        Gnosticism, or understand Crowley versions of Gnosticism.

                        PMCV
                      • Bob Hope
                        It has been said that Carl Jung had a ring containing the image of Abraxas. ... History is the witness that testifies to the passing of time; it illumines
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 14, 2006
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                          It has been said that Carl Jung had a ring containing
                          the image of Abraxas.

                          --- icybrethovhecate <icybrethovhecate@...>
                          wrote:

                          > Now couldnt Baphomets dual-sexuality be a reference
                          > to Hermes' god or
                          > the Demiurge? As to where the goat head come from,
                          > I'm not sure.
                          > However, one name for Baphomet is the "Goat of
                          > Mendes" which was a
                          > god worhsiped by the Egyptains, actually a ram. So
                          > it probably has
                          > it source in the Earth-worshiping Pagan faiths. I
                          > don't however see
                          > why it couldnt be a symbol for the Demiurge as Gods
                          > agent on Earth.
                          > The hands form an ancient symbol which means "As
                          > above, so below". I
                          > haven read much on Abraxas, but I seem to recall his
                          > role in the
                          > writings of Basilides as that of the Demiurge.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag
                          > <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hey Icybrethovhecate
                          > >
                          > > >>>Baphomet comes from the Greek words "Bapho" and
                          > "Metis",
                          > > meaning "absorbing knowledge". I know that
                          > Abraxas is similar to
                          > > Baphomet, in that he represents good and evil and
                          > rules over this
                          > > world. But not sure about much else. The letters
                          > in the name
                          > > Abraxas add up 365 , corresponding with the 365
                          > heavens and the days
                          > > of the year, because of this the name is thought
                          > to contain magical
                          > > powers and to be the source for the word
                          > Abracadabra.<<<
                          > >
                          > > Yes, I know that this is the etymology for
                          > Baphomet that modern
                          > > occultists (esp. Thelemites) tend to use. However,
                          > it was created
                          > by
                          > > Eliphas Levi in modern times for the sake of his
                          > occult ideas, and
                          > it
                          > > isn't the actual historical meaning of the word.
                          > When talking about
                          > > historical movements we have to be careful that
                          > modern versions of
                          > > terms like this not be foisted backwards in time,
                          > an anachronism.
                          > >
                          > > The 19th century occult vogue was filled with
                          > sensationalism and
                          > > misinformation about history and etymology.
                          > Without this modern
                          > > reworking of the term, it looses all connection to
                          > historical
                          > > Gnosticism. Personally, I think traditional
                          > Gnosticism is
                          > interesting
                          > > and mysterious enough without having to create
                          > connections to
                          > incite
                          > > popular imagination. Levi and Dan Brown have much
                          > in common here.
                          > >
                          > > The version that you give of Abrasax (abraxas) is
                          > the one the
                          > > heresiologists give for the being in Basilides'
                          > system. It is
                          > > interesting to note that when the name comes up in
                          > the surviving
                          > > Gnostic texts, it is actually as one of the four
                          > light beings.
                          > >
                          > > PMCV
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          History is the witness that testifies to the passing of time; it illumines reality, vitalizes memory, provides guidance in daily life and brings us tidings of antiquity.
                          Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC), Pro Publio Sestio

                          Cold-hearted orb that rules the night
                          Removes the colours from our sight,
                          Red is grey and yellow white
                          But we decide which is right
                          And which is an illusion.
                          The Moody Blues - "Knights in White Satin"

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                        • Fletcher
                          93 there PMCV...I haven t forgotten this bit just so you know...I bounced this one off the brethern and this was a part of my first responce The Knights
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 16, 2006
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                            93 there PMCV...I haven't forgotten this bit just so you know...I
                            bounced this one off the brethern and this was a part of my first responce

                            "The Knights Templar were founded circa 1100 A.D. This was long after
                            Gnosticism's demise in the 4th century. So although the Gnostics
                            proper could not have informed the Knights Templar, the Gnostic
                            current, or spirit of Gnosticism may have. The Gnostic current can be
                            seen to have influenced Christian mysticism and asceticism generally.
                            You might also trace its influence through other groups or teachings
                            with which the Templars might have had contact in the (so-called) Holy
                            Land. For example, Sufism and the mysticism of the Assassins (Nizari
                            Ismailis) could be cited as traditions that incorporated elements of
                            Gnosticism. While this is all somewhat speculative, I think it is
                            justified by the evidence as being at least possible, if not probable."


                            I will keep you posted as I find the best information. 93/93 RPWT




                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hey Jason
                            >
                            > >>I am sure I dont mean Baphomet.<<<
                            >
                            > Oh, ok. Well, let me know if you remember the source.
                            >
                            > PMCV
                            >
                          • pmcvflag
                            Hey Mr Natural ... after Gnosticism s demise in the 4th century. So although the Gnostics proper could not have informed the Knights Templar, the Gnostic
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 16, 2006
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                              Hey Mr Natural

                              >>> "The Knights Templar were founded circa 1100 A.D. This was long
                              after Gnosticism's demise in the 4th century. So although the
                              Gnostics proper could not have informed the Knights Templar, the
                              Gnostic current, or spirit of Gnosticism may have. The Gnostic
                              current can be seen to have influenced Christian mysticism and
                              asceticism generally. You might also trace its influence through
                              other groups or teachings with which the Templars might have had
                              contact in the (so-called) Holy Land. For example, Sufism and the
                              mysticism of the Assassins (Nizari Ismailis) could be cited as
                              traditions that incorporated elements of Gnosticism. While this is
                              all somewhat speculative, I think it is justified by the evidence as
                              being at least possible, if not probable."<<<

                              This does seem generally historically accurate. Although during
                              their initial institution by Hugh de Payne under Baldwin II (they
                              got the permission to start working on the order under Baldwin I in
                              1118, shortly before his death) they do not seem to have had much
                              mysticism in mind, they do seem to pick some up. They certainly did
                              have contact with the Ismailis and perhaps some Sufi groups at a
                              later time. There were even whole battles between opposed factions
                              of Templars over some of this contact, with one group sworn to
                              protect a moslem ambassador being attacked by another trying to
                              prevent his passage. Whether any of that contact passed on any
                              mystical thinking is open to debate, but probably happened on an
                              individual level rather than system wide. We do have accounts of
                              Knights from various orders (not only Templar) "going native" as it
                              were. We even have a name for their lineage, they were
                              called "pulani".

                              That, of course, brings us back to the Sufi question we were just
                              talking about in another thread here. Sufis are certainly esoteric,
                              and Gnostics are esoteric, but that doesn't mean Sufis and Gnostics
                              are the same thing. How related they may or may not be (especially
                              older forms of Sufism) is a question that I think is still up in the
                              air... but an interesting question to be sure.

                              I think a more likely source for the Templar mysticism is the
                              obvious one, Bernard of Clairvaux. He lined up church backing, he
                              set up thier rule of order, and he very likely wrote his slightly
                              esoteric views into that rule and their rituals. However, his system
                              was FAR from Gnostic. On the contrary, he is well known to have been
                              a vocal and violent adversary of the one group in his era that had
                              some similarities with Gnosticism (though they are not technically
                              Gnostic themselves), the Albigensians. He also was adversarial
                              towards the Occitan courts that promoted the poetry and sometimes
                              even spiritual thinking that seemed to have come with some
                              connection to the Andelusian courts where a number of famous Sufis
                              were from.

                              I think that your friend is right that Gnosticism did have some
                              influence on Christian mysticism in general, but that influence was
                              quite subtle and indirect.... or sometimes even direct but in
                              reaction against Gnosticism. This is even true of modern protestant
                              movements like the Pentacostals that we see evangelizing on TV, but
                              I don't think we would call them "Gnostics" even if there is a
                              subtle influence. The core attributes and beliefs are gone, and
                              influence does not imply inclusion.

                              so maybe something is possible, if we really want to speculate in a
                              very wide way, but I think we should be very careful to be sure
                              there is some genuine evidence all the same.

                              When your friend says the "spirit of Gnosticism", I suspect he or
                              she means something much more general.

                              >>>I will keep you posted as I find the best information. 93/93
                              RPWT<<

                              Thanks, Jason, I am especially interested if you find some reference
                              to Abraxas.

                              PMCV
                            • Michael Leavitt
                              ... Not said, he did, I have seen Jung wearing it in pictures. He also had his own revelatory & ideoscycratic concept of Abrazis in the 7 Sermons to the
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 30, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Bob Hope wrote:
                                > It has been said that Carl Jung had a ring containing
                                > the image of Abraxas.
                                >
                                >
                                Not said, he did, I have seen Jung wearing it in pictures. He also had
                                his own revelatory & ideoscycratic concept of Abrazis in the "7 Sermons
                                to the Dead" at the end of his Autobiography.

                                --
                                M. Leavitt
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