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Gospel of Judas

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  • Fletcher
    93 Gnosticism 2 Any thoughts so far on the discovery of the Gospel of Judas????....Its written in Coptic and it was found in Egypt so, that would indicate it
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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      93 Gnosticism 2

      Any thoughts so far on the discovery of the Gospel of Judas????....Its
      written in Coptic and it was found in Egypt so, that would indicate
      it is probably a Gnostic scripture if my understanding is correct...I
      was watching BBC last night and appearently the story goes Jesus tell
      Judas that he has a secret job for him...that he has to betray
      him...thats opening up a can of worms eh??? I mean the whole sucicide
      thing and all...appearently Jesus calls Judas his "favorite
      Diciple"....
    • Chaplain Gutierrez
      Of course Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him amd that was his job to do so. Judas thought only in the earthly realm and thought that Christ s power was to
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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        Of course Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him amd that was his job to do so.  Judas thought only in the earthly realm and thought that Christ's power was to be shown here on earth. Judas loved Jesus deeply, this is the reason he committed suicide; he could not bare what he had done.  If he would have not committed suicide, God would have forgave him as He does us each and everyday.  Judas's real sin was taking his own life. It saddens me to think that Judas was so despondent over his actions, simply because he was only fulfilling his destiny. All the male disciples of Christ had to proved to that Christ was/is God in human flesh.  Christ performed miracle after miracle right in front of their eyes and none except His female disciples accepted Him for who He was.  Judas was no worse than the 11 other men that denied Him as they walked with Him.  Not until the ascension did they began to realize who He truly was. Judas realized who Christ was and the grief was more than he could bare.

        Fletcher <mr_natural_93@...> wrote:
        93 Gnosticism 2

        Any thoughts so far on the discovery of the Gospel of Judas????....Its
        written in Coptic and it was found in  Egypt so, that would indicate
        it is probably a Gnostic scripture if my understanding is correct...I
        was watching BBC last night and appearently the story goes Jesus tell
        Judas that he has a secret job for him...that he has to betray
        him...thats opening up a can of worms eh??? I mean the whole sucicide
        thing and all...appearently Jesus calls Judas his "favorite
        Diciple"....









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      • Jason Fletcher
        93 Chaplin Gutierrez. So you don t think suicide could have been apart of the divine plan or at least result of it? Chaplain Gutierrez
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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          93 Chaplin Gutierrez. So you don't think suicide could have been apart of the divine plan or at least result of it?

          Chaplain Gutierrez <chaplain_gutierrez@...> wrote:
          Of course Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him amd that was his job to do so.  Judas thought only in the earthly realm and thought that Christ's power was to be shown here on earth. Judas loved Jesus deeply, this is the reason he committed suicide; he could not bare what he had done.  If he would have not committed suicide, God would have forgave him as He does us each and everyday.  Judas's real sin was taking his own life. It saddens me to think that Judas was so despondent over his actions, simply because he was only fulfilling his destiny. All the male disciples of Christ had to proved to that Christ was/is God in human flesh.  Christ performed miracle after miracle right in front of their eyes and none except His female disciples accepted Him for who He was.  Judas was no worse than the 11 other men that denied Him as they walked with Him.  Not until the ascension did they began to realize who He truly was. Judas realized who Christ was and the grief was more than he could bare.





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        • Chaplain Gutierrez
          Of course I believe that everything is pre-destined. The point that I was trying to make is I understand Judas and his reasons for what he did. The other point
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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            Of course I believe that everything is pre-destined. The point that I was trying to make is I understand Judas and his reasons for what he did. The other point I was trying to make is; that if he would have ask God to forgive him for his betrayal; God would have. Everything is part of God's divine plan. And his suicide was definitely a result of it all. Always read beneath what you see written down, even the Bible has layers and layers to it. Each layer takes you to another level of understanding.

            Jason Fletcher <mr_natural_93@...> wrote:
            93 Chaplin Gutierrez. So you don't think suicide could have been apart of the divine plan or at least result of it?

            Chaplain Gutierrez <chaplain_gutierrez@...> wrote:
            Of course Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him amd that was his job to do so.  Judas thought only in the earthly realm and thought that Christ's power was to be shown here on earth. Judas loved Jesus deeply, this is the reason he committed suicide; he could not bare what he had done.  If he would have not committed suicide, God would have forgave him as He does us each and everyday.  Judas's real sin was taking his own life. It saddens me to think that Judas was so despondent over his actions, simply because he was only fulfilling his destiny. All the male disciples of Christ had to proved to that Christ was/is God in human flesh.  Christ performed miracle after miracle right in front of their eyes and none except His female disciples accepted Him for who He was.  Judas was no worse than the 11 other men that denied Him as they walked with Him.  Not until the ascension did they began to realize who He truly was. Judas realized who Christ was and the grief was more than he could bare.





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          • pmcvflag
            Chaplain ... that I was trying to make is I understand Judas and his reasons for what he did. The other point I was trying to make is; that if he would have
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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              Chaplain

              >>>Of course I believe that everything is pre-destined. The point
              that I was trying to make is I understand Judas and his reasons for
              what he did. The other point I was trying to make is; that if he
              would have ask God to forgive him for his betrayal; God would have.
              Everything is part of God's divine plan. And his suicide was
              definitely a result of it all. Always read beneath what you see
              written down, even the Bible has layers and layers to it. Each layer
              takes you to another level of understanding.<<<

              What you mean is, you know why you would do it if you were in the
              same position.... according to one of the "Bible" versions
              (remember, in Acts he doesn't commit suicide, but falls seemingly by
              accident. And we don't take it for granted here that the "Bible" is
              a trustable source. Either way, this episode doesn't take place in
              the Gospel of Judas. This group is about Gnosticism.... and the
              Gospel of Judas has quite a different idea of this "God" you are
              talking about. Please familiarize yourself with the text we are
              talking about here. Lady Cari provides links were you can read the
              gospel in her previous post.

              Thanks
              PMCV
            • Chaplain Gutierrez
              Yes, I do agree with you on all the points you make. And I realize that the Bible is not always a reliable source; simply because man has rewritten it to the
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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                Yes, I do agree with you on all the points you make. And I realize that the Bible is not always a reliable source; simply because man has rewritten it to the way he wants us to see it. Through each translation it is literally taken out of it's original context. I am new to this group and new to the idel of gnosticism. I do believe that the Bible is suppose to be the Word of God, so do not be angry, help me in finding out the Truth. I know that the Bible was cannonized in the 14th century and this is one of the reasons I joined this group; so that I can investigate for myself what the Truth is. And yes; I would want to kill myself if I had betrayed Christ. Please try to be a little less sarcastic if someone is new at this, we all learn by error. No matter what the out-come is of my investigating the Truth, one thing will always remain the same; and that is my belief in God. I will not apologize for what or who I believe in. I came to this group for knowledge not sarcasism. So when someone voices their opinion and you do not agree, just say you do not agree, do not began to attack what they think, believe or feel. You only alienate that person, instead of getting them to begin to see things differently. You kick them with your words before they even have their foot in the door.

                pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                Chaplain

                >>>Of course I believe that everything is pre-destined. The point
                that I was trying to make is I understand Judas and his reasons for
                what he did. The other point I was trying to make is; that if he
                would have ask God to forgive him for his betrayal; God would have.
                Everything is part of God's divine plan. And his suicide was
                definitely a result of it all. Always read beneath what you see
                written down, even the Bible has layers and layers to it. Each layer
                takes you to another level of understanding.<<<

                What you mean is, you know why you would do it if you were in the
                same position.... according to one of the "Bible" versions
                (remember, in Acts he doesn't commit suicide, but falls seemingly by
                accident. And we don't take it for granted here that the "Bible" is
                a trustable source. Either way, this episode doesn't take place in
                the Gospel of Judas. This group is about Gnosticism.... and the
                Gospel of Judas has quite a different idea of this "God" you are
                talking about. Please familiarize yourself with the text we are
                talking about here. Lady Cari provides links were you can read the
                gospel in her previous post.

                Thanks
                PMCV






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              • pmcvflag
                Chaplain ... realize that the Bible is not always a reliable source; simply because man has rewritten it to the way he wants us to see it. Through each
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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                  Chaplain

                  >>>Yes, I do agree with you on all the points you make. And I
                  realize that the Bible is not always a reliable source; simply
                  because man has rewritten it to the way he wants us to see it.
                  Through each translation it is literally taken out of it's original
                  context. I am new to this group and new to the idel of gnosticism. I
                  do believe that the Bible is suppose to be the Word of God, so do
                  not be angry, help me in finding out the Truth. I know that the
                  Bible was cannonized in the 14th century and this is one of the
                  reasons I joined this group; so that I can investigate for myself
                  what the Truth is. And yes; I would want to kill myself if I had
                  betrayed Christ. Please try to be a little less sarcastic if someone
                  is new at this, we all learn by error. No matter what the out-come
                  is of my investigating the Truth, one thing will always remain the
                  same; and that is my belief in God. I will not apologize for what or
                  who I believe in. I came to this group for knowledge not sarcasism.
                  So when someone voices their opinion and you do not agree, just say
                  you do not agree, do not began to attack what they think, believe or
                  feel. You only alienate that person, instead of getting them to
                  begin to see things differently. You kick them with your words
                  before they even have their foot in the door.<<<

                  I was neither angry, nor being sarcastic. I am sorry if anything I
                  said looked to be either one. In fact, I was not even expressing
                  disagreement. On the contrary, I was simply being very direct and
                  forward so that there would be no confusion about exactly what it
                  was we were talking about. Let me take a moment to explain...

                  There are many people here who have many different ideas about the
                  Bible (some reject it completely, others certainly believe in it).
                  In this group we simply don't assume any of them. Not because they
                  are not good, or because we think they must be bad... it is just
                  that we have to make a single way of dealing with things. In this
                  case, we try for a certain amount of critical perspective so that we
                  can allow for the many different ideas to each have their own
                  context. By the same token, it also allows us to test and debate
                  those ideas as friends.

                  I don't ask for you to apologize for what you believe in... just to
                  try and also keep an eye on the subject others are talking about. In
                  this case the subject was the Gospel of Judas. Your ideas are
                  certainly important, but I simply wanted to ask you to also try to
                  understand how they may be related (or not related) to the ideas
                  being talked about in the text from this thread.

                  You stated very clearly what you feel about Judas, so I simply asked
                  that you also allow for the version of Judas we find in the Gospel
                  of Judas, and to take a quick read of the text (it is quite short)
                  so that you could converse not only from your own perspective, but
                  know the perspective of this one Gnostic text.

                  Does that maybe put what I said in a slightly different light?

                  PMCV
                • Chaplain Gutierrez
                  Yes, it certainly does and yes I understand now what you meant. I am a person that takes everything said literally. So please pardon my bluntness. I did not
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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                    Yes, it certainly does and yes I understand now what you meant. I am a person that takes everything said literally. So please pardon my bluntness. I did not get to view the e-mails on the Gospel of Judas. So would you please forward me the links you are referring to. Please accept my apology for the way I spoke out of ignorance, this is the reason I joined so I can know the truth and sort it out in my mind. There are so many lies around every corner, this is the reason I am non-denominational in my Ministry. I seek diligently for the Truth and will look under every rock to find it. I know for a fact the the so-called churches and denominations all take the Bible and twist it to their views and cram it down people's throats. The Truth is out there and I am diligent in seeking it. I will be waiting for the links. Thank you so very much.

                    pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    Chaplain

                    >>>Yes, I do agree with you on all the points you make. And I
                    realize that the Bible is not always a reliable source; simply
                    because man has rewritten it to the way he wants us to see it.
                    Through each translation it is literally taken out of it's original
                    context. I am new to this group and new to the idel of gnosticism. I
                    do believe that the Bible is suppose to be the Word of God, so do
                    not be angry, help me in finding out the Truth. I know that the
                    Bible was cannonized in the 14th century and this is one of the
                    reasons I joined this group; so that I can investigate for myself
                    what the Truth is. And yes; I would want to kill myself if I had
                    betrayed Christ. Please try to be a little less sarcastic if someone
                    is new at this, we all learn by error. No matter what the out-come
                    is of my investigating the Truth, one thing will always remain the
                    same; and that is my belief in God. I will not apologize for what or
                    who I believe in. I came to this group for knowledge not sarcasism.
                    So when someone voices their opinion and you do not agree, just say
                    you do not agree, do not began to attack what they think, believe or
                    feel. You only alienate that person, instead of getting them to
                    begin to see things differently. You kick them with your words
                    before they even have their foot in the door.<<<

                    I was neither angry, nor being sarcastic. I am sorry if anything I
                    said looked to be either one. In fact, I was not even expressing
                    disagreement. On the contrary, I was simply being very direct and
                    forward so that there would be no confusion about exactly what it
                    was we were talking about. Let me take a moment to explain...

                    There are many people here who have many different ideas about the
                    Bible (some reject it completely, others certainly believe in it).
                    In this group we simply don't assume any of them. Not because they
                    are not good, or because we think they must be bad... it is just
                    that we have to make a single way of dealing with things. In this
                    case, we try for a certain amount of critical perspective so that we
                    can allow for the many different ideas to each have their own
                    context. By the same token, it also allows us to test and debate
                    those ideas as friends.

                    I don't ask for you to apologize for what you believe in... just to
                    try and also keep an eye on the subject others are talking about. In
                    this case the subject was the Gospel of Judas. Your ideas are
                    certainly important, but I simply wanted to ask you to also try to
                    understand how they may be related (or not related) to the ideas
                    being talked about in the text from this thread.

                    You stated very clearly what you feel about Judas, so I simply asked
                    that you also allow for the version of Judas we find in the Gospel
                    of Judas, and to take a quick read of the text (it is quite short)
                    so that you could converse not only from your own perspective, but
                    know the perspective of this one Gnostic text.

                    Does that maybe put what I said in a slightly different light?

                    PMCV






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                  • Chaplain Gutierrez
                    Can you please forward the links on the Book of Judas? Chaplain Gutierrez wrote: Yes, I do agree with you on all the points you
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 7, 2006
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                      Can you please forward the links on the Book of Judas?

                      Chaplain Gutierrez <chaplain_gutierrez@...> wrote:
                      Yes, I do agree with you on all the points you make. And I realize that the Bible is not always a reliable source; simply because man has rewritten it to the way he wants us to see it. Through each translation it is literally taken out of it's original context. I am new to this group and new to the idel of gnosticism. I do believe that the Bible is suppose to be the Word of God, so do not be angry, help me in finding out the Truth. I know that the Bible was cannonized in the 14th century and this is one of the reasons I joined this group; so that I can investigate for myself what the Truth is. And yes; I would want to kill myself if I had betrayed Christ. Please try to be a little less sarcastic if someone is new at this, we all learn by error. No matter what the out-come is of my investigating the Truth, one thing will always remain the same; and that is my belief in God. I will not apologize for what or who I believe in. I came to this group for knowledge not sarcasism. So when someone voices their opinion and you do not agree, just say you do not agree, do not began to attack what they think, believe or feel. You only alienate that person, instead of getting them to begin to see things differently. You kick them with your words before they even have their foot in the door.

                      pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      Chaplain

                      >>>Of course I believe that everything is pre-destined. The point
                      that I was trying to make is I understand Judas and his reasons for
                      what he did. The other point I was trying to make is; that if he
                      would have ask God to forgive him for his betrayal; God would have.
                      Everything is part of God's divine plan. And his suicide was
                      definitely a result of it all. Always read beneath what you see
                      written down, even the Bible has layers and layers to it. Each layer
                      takes you to another level of understanding.<<<

                      What you mean is, you know why you would do it if you were in the
                      same position.... according to one of the "Bible" versions
                      (remember, in Acts he doesn't commit suicide, but falls seemingly by
                      accident. And we don't take it for granted here that the "Bible" is
                      a trustable source. Either way, this episode doesn't take place in
                      the Gospel of Judas. This group is about Gnosticism.... and the
                      Gospel of Judas has quite a different idea of this "God" you are
                      talking about. Please familiarize yourself with the text we are
                      talking about here. Lady Cari provides links were you can read the
                      gospel in her previous post.

                      Thanks
                      PMCV






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                    • lady_caritas
                      ... Hello, Chaplain. I d be glad to repost some links here for you. They were originally in a recent thread, Critical Reading. The following National
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 8, 2006
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                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Chaplain Gutierrez
                        <chaplain_gutierrez@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Can you please forward the links on the Book of Judas?
                        >


                        Hello, Chaplain. I'd be glad to repost some links here for you.
                        They were originally in a recent thread, "Critical Reading."

                        The following National Geographic page offers downloads of both the
                        English and Coptic texts of the Gospel of Judas:

                        http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/document.html

                        I would also suggest clicking on links at the top of the page,
                        offering information "about the project," etc. The main homepage
                        also announces airing of a television program on the National
                        Geographic Channel this Sunday (tomorrow) regarding The Gospel of
                        Judas find.

                        http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/index.html
                        http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/gospelofjudas/

                        Cari
                      • Chaplain Gutierrez
                        Thank you for sending this. Last night I pulled up The National Geographic page on my computer and it said that it airs tomorrow night. I will be watching it.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 8, 2006
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                          Thank you for sending this. Last night I pulled up The National Geographic page on my computer and it said that it airs tomorrow night. I will be watching it. I am very interested in the outcome of this movie.

                          lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Chaplain Gutierrez
                          <chaplain_gutierrez@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Can you please forward the links on the Book of Judas?
                          >


                          Hello, Chaplain.  I'd be glad to repost some links here for you. 
                          They were originally in a recent thread, "Critical Reading."

                          The following National Geographic page offers downloads of both the
                          English and Coptic texts of the Gospel of Judas:

                          http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/document.html

                          I would also suggest clicking on links at the top of the page,
                          offering information "about the project," etc.  The main homepage
                          also announces airing of a television program on the National
                          Geographic Channel this Sunday (tomorrow) regarding The Gospel of
                          Judas find.

                          http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/index.html
                          http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/gospelofjudas/

                          Cari








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                        • Gerry
                          ... Well, Jason, your understanding that The Gospel of Judas is apparently a Gnostic text has certainly been borne out, as many of us suspected, but I don t
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 12, 2006
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Fletcher" <mr_natural_93@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Any thoughts so far on the discovery of the Gospel of Judas????....Its
                            > written in Coptic and it was found in Egypt so, that would indicate
                            > it is probably a Gnostic scripture if my understanding is correct...
                            >

                             

                            Well, Jason, your understanding that The Gospel of Judas is apparently a Gnostic text has certainly been borne out, as many of us suspected, but I don't quite follow the reasoning behind your conclusion.  In case anyone is unsure now, Coptic is not a language used exclusively by ancient Gnostics.  It is merely ancient Egyptian (the last phase) written with a Greek-influenced alphabet and bolstered by the addition of Greek loanwords. 

                            With that in mind, it's easy to see that the discovery of a text written in Coptic, Demotic, Hieratic, or Hieroglyphs really goes hand in hand with being discovered in Egypt.  If it were found outside of Egypt, then it might raise a few eyebrows.  Given the diversity of culture in that ancient crossroads, it's not surprising that one might find examples of Coptic writing representing a variety of people as well as perspectives on life.  Recovered papyri and ostraca have provided us glimpses of ancient legal contracts, receipts and inventories, magic spells and maledictions, classroom assignments, personal correspondence, literary works, orthodox scriptures, accounts of martyrdom, and yes, even Gnostic texts.

                            Once the whirlwind of opinions regarding the Gospel of Judas has blown over, will folks be ready for the release of translations from other new material already under examination—Or by the revised decipherment of previously known texts by improvements in our scanning technology?  Personally, I hope the new material never stops, even though it could easily take us more than a lifetime to fully appreciate the discoveries we've already made.

                            Gerry

                          • Jason Fletcher
                            93 Gerry . My thoughts on that are this. The Nag Hammadi collection is Coptic and Egyptian right? Thats part of what lead me to that conclusion. Seccondly it
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 12, 2006
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                              93 Gerry .
                               
                              My thoughts on that are this. The Nag Hammadi collection is Coptic and Egyptian right? Thats part of what lead me to that conclusion. Seccondly it is my understanding that Egypt would have been a pivitol place for the development of Gnosticism, at least durring the Hellenistic age, what with the spread of syncretism under the Ptolomies and all.... please keep in mind I am new to the discussion here. As far as the intreptation of the data goes I agree. The burden cannot be an easy one-J

                              Gerry <gerryhsp@...> wrote:

                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Fletcher" <mr_natural_93@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Any thoughts so far on the discovery of the Gospel of Judas????....Its
                              > written in Coptic and it was found in Egypt so, that would indicate
                              > it is probably a Gnostic scripture if my understanding is correct...
                              >
                               
                              Well, Jason, your understanding that The Gospel of Judas is apparently a Gnostic text has certainly been borne out, as many of us suspected, but I don't quite follow the reasoning behind your conclusion.  In case anyone is unsure now, Coptic is not a language used exclusively by ancient Gnostics.  It is merely ancient Egyptian (the last phase) written with a Greek-influenced alphabet and bolstered by the addition of Greek loanwords. 
                              With that in mind, it's easy to see that the discovery of a text written in Coptic, Demotic, Hieratic, or Hieroglyphs really goes hand in hand with being discovered in Egypt.  If it were found outside of Egypt, then it might raise a few eyebrows.  Given the diversity of culture in that ancient crossroads, it's not surprising that one might find examples of Coptic writing representing a variety of people as well as perspectives on life.  Recovered papyri and ostraca have provided us glimpses of ancient legal contracts, receipts and inventories, magic spells and maledictions, classroom assignments, personal correspondence, literary works, orthodox scriptures, accounts of martyrdom, and yes, even Gnostic texts.
                              Once the whirlwind of opinions regarding the Gospel of Judas has blown over, will folks be ready for the release of translations from other new material already under examination—Or by the revised decipherment of previously known texts by improvements in our scanning technology?  Personally, I hope the new material never stops, even though it could easily take us more than a lifetime to fully appreciate the discoveries we've already made.
                              Gerry


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                            • Gerry
                              ... So far, I m once again in agreement, but just as before, I m not sure if it s for the same reasons. Let me explain, Jason, and you can decide if we re on
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 12, 2006
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                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fletcher <mr_natural_93@...> wrote:

                                >
                                >   
                                > My thoughts on that are this. The Nag Hammadi collection is Coptic
                                > and Egyptian right?

                                 

                                So far, I'm once again in agreement, but just as before, I'm not sure if it's for the same reasons.  Let me explain, Jason, and you can decide if we're on the same page.  Those codices are indeed written in "Coptic," and we are told that they were discovered in Egypt, so they would also be "Egyptian" in a geographical sense.  Otherwise, if you meant to use "Egyptian" in terms of the ancient language of the land, then I would wonder why the distinction from "Coptic" since the latter naturally implies the former.  Either way, unless the discovery were something like … say … Coptic and Icelandic (now that would be something to write home about!), then "Coptic" alone would probably be sufficient to convey the language (both written and spoken) and location of the texts in question.

                                 

                                > Thats part of what lead me to that conclusion.

                                 

                                Well, I was actually hoping that you had merely offered "part" of what led you to conclude that the Gospel of Judas was Gnostic, but short of knowing what you might have omitted, I thought I would simply address what you did include in your post.

                                 

                                > Seccondly it is my understanding that Egypt would have been a pivitol

                                > place for the development of Gnosticism, at least durring the
                                > Hellenistic age, what with the spread of syncretism under the
                                > Ptolomies and all....

                                 

                                Very true—one could find numerous examples where new heights were reached on the fertile grounds of Egypt, but I would have to include proto-orthodoxy among them.

                                 

                                > please keep in mind I am new to the discussion here. As far as the

                                > intreptation of the data goes I agree. The burden cannot be an easy
                                > one-J
                                >

                                 

                                No problem, Jason.  I'm keeping that in mind.  I'm also aware though that there are other newcomers as well (some who just lurk), so if I notice something that might lead a reader down the path of misinformation, I like to clarify any possible ambiguity.  Some people out there may not realize that while the texts of the Nag Hammadi Collection are indeed written in Coptic, not all of them are Gnostic.  Similarly, I could point out that the manuscripts of the Pierpont Morgan Collection are written in Coptic and were discovered in Egypt, but they are not at all Gnostic; in fact, they are quite orthodox.  Obviously then, it would be pointless to depend on the language in which a text is written for determining the nature of its content.  Simply put, "Coptic" does not equal "Gnostic," and I'm sure there would be a number of Coptic Orthodox adherents who would probably take offense at the mere suggestion to the contrary.

                                Gerry

                              • Fletcher
                                93 Gerry . You wrote: Some people ... I forgot about the Egyptian Orthodox...I haven t had alot of exposure to the primary sources to be honest...-J
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 12, 2006
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                                  93 Gerry . You wrote:

                                  Some people
                                  > out there may not realize that while the texts of the Nag Hammadi
                                  > Collection are indeed written in Coptic, not all of them are Gnostic.
                                  > Similarly, I could point out that the manuscripts of the Pierpont Morgan
                                  > Collection are written in Coptic and were discovered in Egypt, but they
                                  > are not at all Gnostic; in fact, they are quite orthodox. Obviously
                                  > then, it would be pointless to depend on the language in which a text is
                                  > written for determining the nature of its content. Simply put,
                                  > "Coptic" does not equal "Gnostic," and I'm sure
                                  > there would be a number of Coptic Orthodox adherents who would probably
                                  > take offense at the mere suggestion to the contrary.

                                  I forgot about the Egyptian Orthodox...I haven't had alot of exposure
                                  to the primary sources to be honest...-J
                                • Melissa McIntyre
                                  In my recent research, I came across this site, very interesting I might add. One that would be open for topic of discussion. Remember, the wise will know the
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 8, 2006
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                                    In my recent research, I came across this site, very interesting I might add. One that would be open for topic of discussion.  Remember, the wise will know the truth and the more minds we have for discussions, the more we can come to the truth. Which is what everyone is seeking. An open mind is so important.
                                     
                                    Melissa
                                     


                                    The Dragon Speaks......Listen.


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                                  • pmcvflag
                                    Hey Melissa ... I might add. One that would be open for topic of discussion. Remember, the wise will know the truth and the more minds we have for discussions,
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 8, 2006
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                                      Hey Melissa

                                      >>>In my recent research, I came across this site, very interesting
                                      I might add. One that would be open for topic of discussion.
                                      Remember, the wise will know the truth and the more minds we have
                                      for discussions, the more we can come to the truth. Which is what
                                      everyone is seeking. An open mind is so important.<<<

                                      An open mind is certainly an important thing. Another important
                                      thing is critical perspective... the ability to maintain a logical
                                      and objective view of a subject. Hopefully there is a middle ground
                                      between them somewhere, eh? In this particular forum most of us are
                                      pretty familiar with the Gnostic texts, and while we are interested
                                      in personal observations an people's spiritual perspectives we do
                                      try to also keep dicussion tempered with historical perspective.

                                      The Gospel of Judas is certainly a topic that is important in this
                                      forum. We have talked about it previously, and certainly can
                                      continue to talk about it. However, I would like to point out that
                                      the page you link for us is full of historical inaccuracies, as well
                                      as some misunderstandings about Gnostic thought. For instance, it is
                                      not one of the Nag Hammadi texts in spite of what that page states.
                                      It is, however, a Gnostic text. Specifically, it comes from the form
                                      of Gnosticism known as "Sethian".

                                      Though the Gospel of Judas does NOT predate the more commonly known
                                      Gospels (the way the page you link for us claims), it is very
                                      possible that the movement that produced the Gospel of Judas did
                                      predate the more widely known Gospels (some speculate that it may
                                      predate Christianity, but that is unproven).

                                      PMCV
                                    • Melissa McIntyre
                                      Well, with some people being new to the group, I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss. There hasn t been that much discussion here, so I
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                        Well, with some people being new to the group, I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss. There hasn't been that much discussion here, so I figured why not. Sorry to offend with the link, but people do have their own views on things, just like the BAR does that a lot people don't like the controversy.
                                         
                                        If we all shared the same view......there would be no need for discussions.
                                         
                                        Melissa

                                        pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                        Hey Melissa

                                        >>>In my recent research, I came across this site, very interesting
                                        I might add. One that would be open for topic of discussion.
                                        Remember, the wise will know the truth and the more minds we have
                                        for discussions, the more we can come to the truth. Which is what
                                        everyone is seeking. An open mind is so important.<< <

                                        An open mind is certainly an important thing. Another important
                                        thing is critical perspective. .. the ability to maintain a logical
                                        and objective view of a subject. Hopefully there is a middle ground
                                        between them somewhere, eh? In this particular forum most of us are
                                        pretty familiar with the Gnostic texts, and while we are interested
                                        in personal observations an people's spiritual perspectives we do
                                        try to also keep dicussion tempered with historical perspective.

                                        The Gospel of Judas is certainly a topic that is important in this
                                        forum. We have talked about it previously, and certainly can
                                        continue to talk about it. However, I would like to point out that
                                        the page you link for us is full of historical inaccuracies, as well
                                        as some misunderstandings about Gnostic thought. For instance, it is
                                        not one of the Nag Hammadi texts in spite of what that page states.
                                        It is, however, a Gnostic text. Specifically, it comes from the form
                                        of Gnosticism known as "Sethian".

                                        Though the Gospel of Judas does NOT predate the more commonly known
                                        Gospels (the way the page you link for us claims), it is very
                                        possible that the movement that produced the Gospel of Judas did
                                        predate the more widely known Gospels (some speculate that it may
                                        predate Christianity, but that is unproven).

                                        PMCV




                                        The Dragon Speaks......Listen.


                                        Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

                                      • pmcvflag
                                        Hey Melissa ... would be an interesting topic to discuss.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                          Hey Melissa

                                          >>>Well, with some people being new to the group, I just thought it
                                          would be an interesting topic to discuss.<<<

                                          Sure, it is very interesting to discuss. That is why I said we have
                                          discussed it and surely can continue to discuss it. I encourage as
                                          much discussion on the topic as we can muster.

                                          >>>Sorry to offend with the link, but people do have their own views
                                          on things, just like the BAR does that a lot people don't like the
                                          controversy.<<<

                                          Hmmm, I am not sure what made you think there was any offence,
                                          Melissa. Let me put such thoughts to rest right now since I believe
                                          you may have misread my intent... I see absolutely no reason for any
                                          kind of offence. On the contrary, I very simply and bluntly was
                                          stating that there were some historically questionable materials in
                                          the link that I felt should be discussed, so I pointed them out. This
                                          is not to say you should not have posted the link, but if a link is
                                          posted they are open for discussion, right? Otherwise, what would be
                                          the function of having the link?

                                          We also encourage you to search through our own archives for subjects
                                          like this and bring the issues up again if you feel they are of
                                          interest to you. And, if you look to your left on the forum home page
                                          you will also see pages for links, files, and a database that may have
                                          some interesting materials to browse.

                                          If you have questions or comments concerning the page you offered, or
                                          my observations about the page, you are very welcome to bring them up.
                                          That is part of what we are here for.

                                          >>>If we all shared the same view......there would be no need for
                                          discussions.<<<

                                          Very true, and I was discussing just as you suggest we should. That is
                                          why I have asked questions and raised issues. Now it is your turn to
                                          do the same ;)

                                          I would like to give you fair warning. We do sometimes get in an
                                          academic mode here when we talk about the historical side of things
                                          (which is part of our focus). This means we can be a bit blunt and
                                          direct, and it may be best not to read overly much emotion into posts
                                          in those cases. If I say something like "I am not aware of any
                                          evidence to support _____" or "The texts we have suggest _____", I am
                                          not being grumpy or offended.... think of it instead as a chance to
                                          present contrary evidence or to test your view against what can
                                          actually be demonstrated historically.

                                          PMCV
                                        • Melissa McIntyre
                                          Sorry if I offended, but I was having a bad experience in another group and I guess it surfaced here. I am sorry if I came off strong in my words. Please
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                            Sorry if I offended, but I was having a bad experience in another group and I guess it surfaced here. I am sorry if I came off strong in my words. Please accept my apology.
                                             
                                            Melissa

                                            pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                            Hey Melissa

                                            >>>Well, with some people being new to the group, I just thought it
                                            would be an interesting topic to discuss.<<<

                                            Sure, it is very interesting to discuss. That is why I said we have
                                            discussed it and surely can continue to discuss it. I encourage as
                                            much discussion on the topic as we can muster.

                                            >>>Sorry to offend with the link, but people do have their own views
                                            on things, just like the BAR does that a lot people don't like the
                                            controversy. <<<

                                            Hmmm, I am not sure what made you think there was any offence,
                                            Melissa. Let me put such thoughts to rest right now since I believe
                                            you may have misread my intent... I see absolutely no reason for any
                                            kind of offence. On the contrary, I very simply and bluntly was
                                            stating that there were some historically questionable materials in
                                            the link that I felt should be discussed, so I pointed them out. This
                                            is not to say you should not have posted the link, but if a link is
                                            posted they are open for discussion, right? Otherwise, what would be
                                            the function of having the link?

                                            We also encourage you to search through our own archives for subjects
                                            like this and bring the issues up again if you feel they are of
                                            interest to you. And, if you look to your left on the forum home page
                                            you will also see pages for links, files, and a database that may have
                                            some interesting materials to browse.

                                            If you have questions or comments concerning the page you offered, or
                                            my observations about the page, you are very welcome to bring them up.
                                            That is part of what we are here for.

                                            >>>If we all shared the same view......there would be no need for
                                            discussions. <<<

                                            Very true, and I was discussing just as you suggest we should. That is
                                            why I have asked questions and raised issues. Now it is your turn to
                                            do the same ;)

                                            I would like to give you fair warning. We do sometimes get in an
                                            academic mode here when we talk about the historical side of things
                                            (which is part of our focus). This means we can be a bit blunt and
                                            direct, and it may be best not to read overly much emotion into posts
                                            in those cases. If I say something like "I am not aware of any
                                            evidence to support _____" or "The texts we have suggest _____", I am
                                            not being grumpy or offended.... think of it instead as a chance to
                                            present contrary evidence or to test your view against what can
                                            actually be demonstrated historically.

                                            PMCV




                                            The Dragon Speaks......Listen.


                                            Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                                          • pmcvflag
                                            Hey Melissa ... group and I guess it surfaced here. I am sorry if I came off strong in my words. Please accept my apology.
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                              Hey Melissa

                                              >>>Sorry if I offended, but I was having a bad experience in another
                                              group and I guess it surfaced here. I am sorry if I came off strong in
                                              my words. Please accept my apology.<<<

                                              Ah, I can understand that. I have been in the same position. Thank you
                                              for explaining. I wish I had read this one before answering the post I
                                              just sent... consider my post right before this one null ;)

                                              PMCV
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