Re: Lebanese Gnostics? Crispin's questions
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
> --- In email@example.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@> wrote:
> > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@>
> > >of
> > > Well, that makes sense. By focusing on the general function
> > thethe
> > > motifs it should be possible to address this. Of course, as you
> > note,
> > > we need to be reasonably sure of what that function is before
> > > proceeding. Perhaps then we can account, for example, for why
> > > Logos, rather than Sophia, is blamed for the gnostic Fall inthe
> > > Tripartite Tractate in contradiction of other Valentinianworks,
> > andElaine
> > > so on and so forth. A bit of work, though, don't you think? -
> > W.
> > > >
> > >
> > Steve, you've hit on one example of what Harold Attridge and
> > Pagels in their introduction to The Tripartite Tractate(Robinson's
> > _The Nag Hammadi Library_) have seen as an attempt to present arupture
> > theological statement that appeals to the church as a whole,
> > including ordinary Christians,... a "work that departs from
> > Valentinian doctrine more radically than any known representative
> > the tradition."
> > The fall of logos (as "agent of rupture in the pleroma")
> > is "presented in remarkably positive terms, as a result of his
> > own `abundant love,'"... "in accordance with the Father's will,"
> > the fall even "proceeds from the Logos' free choice."
> > If we weigh this against other works in which the "agent of
> > in the pleroma" is Sophia, do we find a comparable function? Orthere
> > rather does this highly Christianized work compromise a perceived
> > function of the other more classical Valentinian works?
> > You're right, Steve. We might need to identify what the function
> > Logos and the fall are before proceeding. Then again, maybe
> > are other *related* functions among the works that are even morevalid epistomology he gives as one possible definition of
> > important.
> > Cari
> You know, Cari, in Plato's discussions of the foundations for a
knowledge "true belief with a logos". I cannot help but see parallels
with the Sophia/Logos syzygy. If this is, in fact what the Sophia
myth is getting at, it would seem to me that the changes introduced
in The Tripartite Tractate in regards to this would obscure, rather
than clarify, the meaning of the myth. What do you think? -Steve W.
- Steve wrote:
>Doesn't seem necessary for the Quabalists and the breaking of the
>> I'm curious what others think. Going back to Plato (as Steve did
>> with his reference to Theaetetus), we see Plato's demiurge in
>> Timaeus. How is a relational demiurge of some sort necessary
>> functionally to a Gnostic system, and is this necessary to carry into
>> a modern adaptation?
> Hi Cari. IMO, it's fascinating to see how, for example, the author of
> The Apocryphon of John goes back and forth from the Timaeus to Genesis
> and uses both as a point of departure for his/her own perspective. In
> Timaeus Plato has the Demiurge using the Form of the Intelligible
> Living Creature as a template for the Cosmos. As such, Plato seems to
> be an early advocate for 'Intelligent Design'. For Plato, the world is
> intelligible, hence modeled upon an intelligible pattern. In the
> Apocryphon of John the Demiurge also seeks to work from an intelligible
> pattern, but doesn't fully understand it. Consequently his handiwork is
> flawed in ways that go beyond the inherent imperfection of a copy in
> relation to the original. IMO, it might be possible to dispense with a
> demiurgos in an Neo-Platonic emanationist system wherein the only
> problem with materiality is the inherent inferiority of copy to
> original and wherein the successive unfolding of emanations is simply
> inevitable. However, it seems to me that the problem in the Apocryphon
> of John goes deeper than this and is conceived as being an actual
> rupture in the Great Chain of Being. As such, it would be difficult to
> account for this apart from a Demiurgic figure, or at least a Sophia
> figure driven by a desire which is contrary to the will of her Consort,
> that is to say, unbalanced. What is your opinion on this? -Steve W.
vessles. Might make it better though, if he were there.