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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Gnostics in Lebanon?

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  • F8snafs@aol.com
    Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from Tyre nearly three thousand years ago. There are currently no significant ties between the two that I am
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1 7:51 AM
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      Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from Tyre nearly three
      thousand years ago. There are currently no significant ties between
      the two that I am aware of, political or metaphysical.
       
      Also, Terrie, I can assure you there is no Saint Stephan's church in
      Tyre. When UNESCO arrived there in 1998 to assist in the city's
      revitalization efforts and invited several archaeologists to assess and
      map key historical sites they found many structures which had been
      built by European Crusaders, but no major church structures were 
      identified.
       
      There is a Church of Saint Stephans which is about 25 or 30 miles
      north of Beirut in Al Batrun. Perhaps that is the church you were
      thinking of.
       
      Your servant,
       
      Widad
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2006 2:45:29 PM Central Standard Time, thalprin@... writes:
      Hi,

      I'm also very interested in hearing more about Gnostics in Tyre (and
      Carthage too? or any relations, with Carthage as well.)  Also, in Tyre
      (word means rock doesn't it?) I'm interested in facts/data relative
      that you might know about Saint Stephan's church (I think it is.) 

      Best wishes,

      Terrie
       
    • thalprin
      What espeially interests me is the religious/spiritual relations passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre This
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 1 9:33 AM
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        What espeially interests me is the religious/spiritual relations
        passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre

        This article/rap on Wikipedia mentions the church (in Trye) that
        interests me - they say it was built shortly after Saint Stephan's
        death. I'd assume it'd been named/dedicated to Saint Stephan? Are
        you saying it doesn't actually exist?

        Thanks for the info. Please keep us informed. This is a very
        interesting and important topic I think.

        Best wishes,

        Terrie

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from Tyre nearly
        three
        > thousand years ago. There are currently no significant ties
        between
        > the two that I am aware of, political or metaphysical.
        >
        > Also, Terrie, I can assure you there is no Saint Stephan's church
        in
        > Tyre. When UNESCO arrived there in 1998 to assist in the city's
        > revitalization efforts and invited several archaeologists to
        assess and
        > map key historical sites they found many structures which had been
        > built by European Crusaders, but no major church structures were
        > identified.
        >
        > There is a Church of Saint Stephans which is about 25 or 30 miles
        > north of Beirut in Al Batrun. Perhaps that is the church you were
        > thinking of.
        >
        > Your servant,
        >
        > Widad
        >
        > In a message dated 3/31/2006 2:45:29 PM Central Standard Time,
        > thalprin@... writes:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I'm also very interested in hearing more about Gnostics in Tyre
        (and
        > Carthage too? or any relations, with Carthage as well.) Also, in
        Tyre
        > (word means rock doesn't it?) I'm interested in facts/data
        relative
        > that you might know about Saint Stephan's church (I think it
        is.)
        >
        > Best wishes,
        >
        > Terrie
        >
      • lady_caritas
        ... Terrie, upon reading the link you offered, I found this: A church was founded here soon after the death of Saint Stephen, and Paul of Tarsus, on his
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 1 11:03 AM
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
          >
          > What espeially interests me is the religious/spiritual relations
          > passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans.
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre
          >
          > This article/rap on Wikipedia mentions the church (in Trye) that
          > interests me - they say it was built shortly after Saint Stephan's
          > death. I'd assume it'd been named/dedicated to Saint Stephan? Are
          > you saying it doesn't actually exist?
          >
          > Thanks for the info. Please keep us informed. This is a very
          > interesting and important topic I think.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Terrie
          >


          Terrie, upon reading the link you offered, I found this:

          "A church was founded here soon after the death of Saint Stephen, and
          Paul of Tarsus, on his return from his third missionary journey,
          spent a week in conversation with the disciples there."

          Unless you were referring to something else I missed, it's not clear
          that the founding of this church included construction of a building,
          or at least one that survived to modern times. Disciples also might
          have met in each others' homes or elsewhere.

          In any case, the Gnostic movement described by Widad, "a discreet
          philosophical network of teachers and students," does not appear to
          have a very public building façade.

          Cari
        • F8snafs@aol.com
          I m sorry, Terrie, but I think it pretty unlikely any such structure could still exist and slip my notice. Perhaps some ruins have been unearthed recently
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 1 12:11 PM
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            I'm sorry, Terrie, but I think it pretty unlikely any such structure 
            could still exist and slip my notice. Perhaps some ruins have been
            unearthed recently that I'm unaware of. I'll write my father and see
            what he can find if you'd like. I'd be more than willing to do so.
             
            I'm not very knowledgable in regards to "the religious/spiritual
            relations passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans." I
            saw a PBS program on the Phoenicians that stressed how little
            we know about this issue outside of Jewish, Greek and Roman
            histories which, the program suggested, were too biased to be
            considered all that reliable. Though they may have been right
            about one thing: that at some period the ancient Phoenicians
            practiced a form of ritual child sacrifice.
             
            Anyway, Christianity and Gnosticism was about two thousand
            years later in coming to the Levant.
             
            Your servant,
             
            Widad
             
            In a message dated 4/1/2006 12:58:13 PM Central Standard Time, thalprin@... writes:
            What espeially interests me is the religious/spiritual relations
            passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre

            This article/rap on Wikipedia mentions the church (in Trye) that
            interests me - they say it was built shortly after Saint Stephan's
            death.  I'd assume it'd been named/dedicated to Saint Stephan?  Are
            you saying it doesn't actually exist?  

            Thanks for the info.  Please keep us informed.  This is a very
            interesting and important topic I think.

            Best wishes,

            Terrie

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
            >

            > Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from Tyre nearly
            three
            > thousand years ago. There are currently no significant ties 
            between
            > the two that I am aware of, political or metaphysical.

            > Also, Terrie, I can assure you there is no Saint Stephan's church
            in
            > Tyre. When UNESCO arrived there in 1998 to assist in the city's
            > revitalization efforts and invited several archaeologists to
            assess  and
            > map key historical sites they found many structures which had  been
            > built by European Crusaders, but no major church structures  were
            > identified.

            > There is a Church of Saint Stephans which is about 25 or 30 miles
            > north of Beirut in Al Batrun. Perhaps that is the church you were
            > thinking of.

            > Your servant,

            > Widad

            > In a message dated 3/31/2006 2:45:29 PM Central Standard Time, 
            > thalprin@... writes:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I'm also very interested in hearing more about Gnostics in  Tyre
            (and
            > Carthage too? or any relations, with Carthage as well.)   Also, in
            Tyre
            > (word means rock doesn't it?) I'm interested in facts/data 
            relative
            > that you might know about Saint Stephan's church (I think it 
            is.) 
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Terrie
            >
             
          • thalprin
            Yes, thanks very much, I d like that if it s no bother. ... structure ... see ... Yup, it s a problem, ie political/cultural propaganda. Should hear what
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 1 12:26 PM
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              Yes, thanks very much, I'd like that if it's no bother.

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > I'm sorry, Terrie, but I think it pretty unlikely any such
              structure
              > could still exist and slip my notice. Perhaps some ruins have been
              > unearthed recently that I'm unaware of. I'll write my father and
              see
              > what he can find if you'd like. I'd be more than willing to do so.
              >
              > I'm not very knowledgable in regards to "the religious/spiritual
              > relations passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans." I
              > saw a PBS program on the Phoenicians that stressed how little
              > we know about this issue outside of Jewish, Greek and Roman
              > histories which, the program suggested, were too biased to be
              > considered all that reliable.


              Yup, it's a problem, ie political/cultural propaganda. Should hear
              what folks had to say about the Etruscans.


              > Though they may have been right
              > about one thing: that at some period the ancient Phoenicians
              > practiced a form of ritual child sacrifice.
              >


              I think I saw that show too. Wikipedia has a nice little rap
              mentioning the continuing controversy as to whether or not Carthage
              was involved with ritual sacrafice:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage


              > Anyway, Christianity and Gnosticism was about two thousand
              > years later in coming to the Levant.
              >


              Yah that's what I hear too.

              Best wishes,

              Terrie


              > Your servant,
              >
              > Widad



              Best wishes,

              Terrie


              >
              > In a message dated 4/1/2006 12:58:13 PM Central Standard Time,
              > thalprin@... writes:
              >
              > What espeially interests me is the religious/spiritual relations
              > passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans.
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre
              >
              > This article/rap on Wikipedia mentions the church (in Trye) that
              > interests me - they say it was built shortly after Saint
              Stephan's
              > death. I'd assume it'd been named/dedicated to Saint Stephan?
              Are
              > you saying it doesn't actually exist?
              >
              > Thanks for the info. Please keep us informed. This is a very
              > interesting and important topic I think.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              >
              > Terrie
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@ wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from Tyre nearly
              > three
              > > thousand years ago. There are currently no significant ties
              > between
              > > the two that I am aware of, political or metaphysical.
              > >
              > > Also, Terrie, I can assure you there is no Saint Stephan's
              church
              > in
              > > Tyre. When UNESCO arrived there in 1998 to assist in the city's
              > > revitalization efforts and invited several archaeologists to
              > assess and
              > > map key historical sites they found many structures which had
              been
              > > built by European Crusaders, but no major church structures
              were
              > > identified.
              > >
              > > There is a Church of Saint Stephans which is about 25 or 30
              miles
              > > north of Beirut in Al Batrun. Perhaps that is the church you
              were
              > > thinking of.
              > >
              > > Your servant,
              > >
              > > Widad
              > >
              > > In a message dated 3/31/2006 2:45:29 PM Central Standard Time,
              > > thalprin@ writes:
              > >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > I'm also very interested in hearing more about Gnostics in
              Tyre
              > (and
              > > Carthage too? or any relations, with Carthage as well.) Also,
              in
              > Tyre
              > > (word means rock doesn't it?) I'm interested in facts/data
              > relative
              > > that you might know about Saint Stephan's church (I think it
              > is.)
              > >
              > > Best wishes,
              > >
              > > Terrie
              > >
              >
            • thalprin
              I wants that data from that moment. (Wah!) Surely they archived. ... and ... clear ... building, ... might ... I hear you, of course, ie several things are
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 1 12:28 PM
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                I wants that data from that moment. (Wah!) Surely they archived.


                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...>
                wrote:
                > Terrie, upon reading the link you offered, I found this:
                >
                > "A church was founded here soon after the death of Saint Stephen,
                and
                > Paul of Tarsus, on his return from his third missionary journey,
                > spent a week in conversation with the disciples there."
                >
                > Unless you were referring to something else I missed, it's not
                clear
                > that the founding of this church included construction of a
                building,
                > or at least one that survived to modern times. Disciples also
                might
                > have met in each others' homes or elsewhere.


                I hear you, of course, ie several things are generally quite
                possible.


                >
                > In any case, the Gnostic movement described by Widad, "a discreet
                > philosophical network of teachers and students," does not appear
                to
                > have a very public building façade.
                >


                Well, privacy is always important. :)))


                > Cari
                >


                Hi,

                Terrie
              • thalprin
                ... been ... so. ... hehe, when city-state elders were asked to comment upon their brutal behavior towards their children they of course replied: The Pharoh
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 1 12:55 PM
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                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'm sorry, Terrie, but I think it pretty unlikely any such
                  > structure
                  > > could still exist and slip my notice. Perhaps some ruins have
                  been
                  > > unearthed recently that I'm unaware of. I'll write my father and
                  > see
                  > > what he can find if you'd like. I'd be more than willing to do
                  so.
                  > >
                  > > I'm not very knowledgable in regards to "the religious/spiritual
                  > > relations passed between Tyre, Carthage, and the Etruscans." I
                  > > saw a PBS program on the Phoenicians that stressed how little
                  > > we know about this issue outside of Jewish, Greek and Roman
                  > > histories which, the program suggested, were too biased to be
                  > > considered all that reliable.
                  > > Though they may have been right
                  > > about one thing: that at some period the ancient Phoenicians
                  > > practiced a form of ritual child sacrifice.
                  > >


                  hehe, when city-state elders were asked to comment upon their brutal
                  behavior towards their children they of course replied: "The Pharoh
                  made us do it."



                  > > Anyway, Christianity and Gnosticism was about two thousand
                  > > years later in coming to the Levant.
                  > >
                  > > Your servant,
                  > >
                  > > Widad
                  >
                  >
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