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Re: Radical Dutch Theology

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  • lady_caritas
    ... How kind of you, Widad. I hope you ll be engaging us regularly with your insights. ...
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 28 1:35 PM
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > ===============================================
      > Thank you, Cari. I've been an admirer of yours from afar.



      How kind of you, Widad. I hope you'll be engaging us regularly with
      your insights.



      > Briefly, Robinson's proposal doesn't surprise me since prophecy
      > in hindsight, namely the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple,
      > doesn't sit well with many Christians.
      >
      > By the way, I have to share the following fruit of my search for
      > "Van Manen theology." Hope you get a kick out of this:
      >
      > _Is theology biblical?_
      > (http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?
      src=dmn&requestId=969bd2adf43c3569&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=Van+Man
      en++theology&clickedItemUR
      > N=http://switcher.dmn.aol.com/sw/r?
      ri=96PuxjIC5TRxGPlpBV1vp2wA&ai=0&dt=1143577
      > 310635&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fpagead%2Ficlk%3Fsa%3Dl%26ai%
      3DB0wzs3pop
      > RPidKKXEqAKVq9nLB__JpgqjoLKmAdrzpQvQ9wcQARgBIJpOKAIwAEifOVCk75Ko-
      f____8BmAGcSq
      > AB05GS_wPIAQGVAh-5Sgo%26num%3D1%26adurl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%
      2Fwww.bjnewlife.org%2F&cs
      > =TxDZ1fRMAQZQoHfjsYb07%2FwIp6Q%
      3D&title=Is+<b>theology</b>+biblical?)
      > Theology is meaningless to the truly born-again
      Christianswww.bjnewlife.org
      >

      Ouch. *lol* Looks like that fruit must have been at the bottom of
      the barrel.

      Here's van+Manen+theology on Google:
      http://tinyurl.com/gle7q

      Cari
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Widad, welcome to the discussion. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on the hermeneutics issue. As for your question about the Dutch Radical
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 28 1:42 PM
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        Hey Widad, welcome to the discussion. Sorry it took me so long to
        get back to you on the hermeneutics issue.

        As for your question about the Dutch Radical school, I am afraid I
        can offer nothing that Lady Cari didn't already state. It is my
        understanding of the movement that although they were concerned with
        a critical rethinking of certain historical and textual criticism
        aspects of NT study, we are still largely talking about theologians.
        While I think their drive to rethink these things is something
        modern scholars could respect, I don't think all of their
        conclusions have stood the test of more recent critical
        methodologies. It does seem, though, that they made some valuable
        academic advances.

        I found one page that was quite interesting.
        http://www.atheistalliance.org/jhc/articles/Detering.htm

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
        >
        > Hello all. My name is Widad and I have been reading the posts here
        > for some time now.
        >
        > In another Gnostic discussion group where I regularly post it was
        > asserted that the consensus of the Radical Dutch school of
        > theology(?) claims the NT book of Revelations predates the fall of
        > the Jerusalem Temple, the Gospels and the Epistles of Paul.
        > Since this isn't necessarily an issue pertaining to Gnosticism,
        > what I would like to know is if anyone can lead me to a website
        > with a relatively thorough description of Radical Dutch theology,
        > especially if it contains their views re Revelations. My own
        > searches have been pretty fruitless.
        >
        > Anyhow, their position seems pretty radical to me; a position I've
        > never encountered before. Any assistance would be greatly
        > appreciated.
        >
        > Your sister and servant,
        >
        > Widad
        >
      • F8snafs@aol.com
        It s a pleasure to be here, PMCV. Your hermeneutics post was well worth the wait. Thank you. The individual who sparked this quest of mine to discover the
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 29 7:09 AM
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          It's a pleasure to be here, PMCV. Your hermeneutics post was well
          worth the wait. Thank you.
           
          The individual who sparked this quest of mine to discover the Radical
          Dutch also asserted, in the same post I summed up below, that it
          was the "scholarly trend these days" to place the writing of
          Revelations prior to the events that resulted in the destruction of the
          Jerusalem Temple. I've found nothing to back that claim, and now I
          see no evidence that this Dutch school was much concerned with
          anything besides authorship and dating for the Pauline texts and
          the historicity of Jesus.
           
          Again, my thanks to you and Lady Cari. My search is complete
          now so I leave the burden of supporting those claims back in the
          other fellow's court. I'm still awaiting a response.
           
          Your servant,
           
          Widad
           
          In a message dated 3/28/2006 3:49:11 PM Central Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
          Hey Widad, welcome to the discussion. Sorry it took me so long to
          get back to you on the hermeneutics issue.

          As for your question about the Dutch Radical school, I am afraid I
          can offer nothing that Lady Cari didn't already state. It is my
          understanding of the movement that although they were concerned with
          a critical rethinking of certain historical and textual criticism
          aspects of NT study, we are still largely talking about theologians.
          While I think their drive to rethink these things is something
          modern scholars could respect, I don't think all of their
          conclusions have stood the test of more recent critical
          methodologies. It does seem, though, that they made some valuable
          academic advances.

          I found one page that was quite interesting.
          http://www.atheistalliance.org/jhc/articles/Detering.htm

          PMCV

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
          >
          > Hello all. My name is Widad and I have been reading the posts here
          > for some time now.

          > In another Gnostic discussion group where I regularly post it was
          > asserted that the consensus of the Radical Dutch school of
          > theology(?) claims the NT book of Revelations predates the fall  of
          > the Jerusalem Temple, the Gospels and the Epistles of Paul.
          > Since this isn't necessarily an issue pertaining to  Gnosticism,
          > what I would like to know is if anyone can lead me to a website
          > with a relatively thorough description of Radical Dutch  theology,
          > especially if it contains their views re Revelations. My own
          > searches have been pretty fruitless.

          > Anyhow, their position seems pretty radical to me; a position I've
          > never encountered before. Any assistance would be greatly
          > appreciated.

          > Your sister and servant,

          > Widad
          >
           
        • pmcvflag
          Widad ... Radical Dutch also asserted, in the same post I summed up below, that it was the scholarly trend these days to place the writing of Revelations
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 29 2:19 PM
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            Widad

            >>>The individual who sparked this quest of mine to discover the
            Radical Dutch also asserted, in the same post I summed up below,
            that it was the "scholarly trend these days" to place the writing of
            Revelations prior to the events that resulted in the destruction of
            the Jerusalem Temple.<<<

            I would have to agree with your skepticism here. I am listing
            historians and textual critics in my head (not including
            theologians, again), and can't think of any who are part of
            this "scholarly trend". I am sure there must be a couple out there
            somewhere. Perhaps this person simply meant something wider than I
            would normally use the term "scholar" to talk about? In any event,
            the term "trend" seems a bit strong to me, but I would be curious to
            know if something knew is brewing, and who is brewing it.

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > It's a pleasure to be here, PMCV. Your hermeneutics post was well
            > worth the wait. Thank you.
            >
            > The individual who sparked this quest of mine to discover the
            Radical
            > Dutch also asserted, in the same post I summed up below, that it
            > was the "scholarly trend these days" to place the writing of
            > Revelations prior to the events that resulted in the destruction
            of the
            > Jerusalem Temple. I've found nothing to back that claim, and now I
            > see no evidence that this Dutch school was much concerned with
            > anything besides authorship and dating for the Pauline texts and
            > the historicity of Jesus.
            >
            > Again, my thanks to you and Lady Cari. My search is complete
            > now so I leave the burden of supporting those claims back in the
            > other fellow's court. I'm still awaiting a response.
            >
            > Your servant,
            >
            > Widad
            >
            > In a message dated 3/28/2006 3:49:11 PM Central Standard Time,
            > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
            >
            > Hey Widad, welcome to the discussion. Sorry it took me so long to
            > get back to you on the hermeneutics issue.
            >
            > As for your question about the Dutch Radical school, I am afraid
            I
            > can offer nothing that Lady Cari didn't already state. It is my
            > understanding of the movement that although they were concerned
            with
            > a critical rethinking of certain historical and textual criticism
            > aspects of NT study, we are still largely talking about
            theologians.
            > While I think their drive to rethink these things is something
            > modern scholars could respect, I don't think all of their
            > conclusions have stood the test of more recent critical
            > methodologies. It does seem, though, that they made some valuable
            > academic advances.
            >
            > I found one page that was quite interesting.
            > http://www.atheistalliance.org/jhc/articles/Detering.htm
            >
            > PMCV
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello all. My name is Widad and I have been reading the posts
            here
            > > for some time now.
            > >
            > > In another Gnostic discussion group where I regularly post it
            was
            > > asserted that the consensus of the Radical Dutch school of
            > > theology(?) claims the NT book of Revelations predates the
            fall of
            > > the Jerusalem Temple, the Gospels and the Epistles of Paul.
            > > Since this isn't necessarily an issue pertaining to Gnosticism,
            > > what I would like to know is if anyone can lead me to a website
            > > with a relatively thorough description of Radical Dutch
            theology,
            > > especially if it contains their views re Revelations. My own
            > > searches have been pretty fruitless.
            > >
            > > Anyhow, their position seems pretty radical to me; a position
            I've
            > > never encountered before. Any assistance would be greatly
            > > appreciated.
            > >
            > > Your sister and servant,
            > >
            > > Widad
            > >
            >
          • Tsharpmin7@aol.com
            hello Widad.... a friend forwards posts to me from Gnostic Thought they think i might find interesting. it s to the point now that i insist they send all of
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 30 2:07 PM
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              hello Widad.... a friend forwards posts to me from Gnostic
              Thought they think i might find interesting.  it's to the
              point now that i insist they send all of your posts to me,
              irregardless of the subject matter.  i'm convinced we have
              some mutual Friends; some "cultural anthropologists" in
              Dark England perhaps?
               
              i'm familiar with the exchange that brought you to us for
              assistance and, since it's clear you have subsequently
              satisfied your search, i'll leave good enough alone.  fihi
              ma fihi.
               
              if the moderators deem it permissible i would like to
              hear the latest news about these Lebanese Gnostics
              you've been keeping your eyes on. also, if permissible, it
              would be nice to get some resolution on the issue -- that
              was left unresolved due to some unforseen
              circumstances -- of hermeneutics and the Lebanese
              Gnostics.
               
              so welcome aboard, Widad.  i join Cari in hoping you will
              be a regular contributor here.
               
              your friend,
               
              Crispin Sainte III
               
              In a message dated 3/25/2006 7:26:51 AM Central Standard Time, F8snafs@... writes:
              Hello all. My name is Widad and I have been reading the posts here
              for some time now.
               
              In another Gnostic discussion group where I regularly post it was
              asserted that the consensus of the Radical Dutch school of
              theology(?) claims the NT book of Revelations predates the fall of
              the Jerusalem Temple, the Gospels and the Epistles of Paul.
              Since this isn't necessarily an issue pertaining to Gnosticism,
              what I would like to know is if anyone can lead me to a website
              with a relatively thorough description of Radical Dutch theology,
              especially if it contains their views re Revelations. My own
              searches have been pretty fruitless. 
               
              Anyhow, their position seems pretty radical to me; a position I've
              never encountered before. Any assistance would be greatly
              appreciated.
               
              Your sister and servant,
               
              Widad
               
            • F8snafs@aol.com
              I believe we do indeed have mutual Friends, Crispin, and their house is in good order. We can discuss this off-list if you wish it. I would be more than happy
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 30 3:40 PM
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                I believe we do indeed have mutual Friends, Crispin, and their house
                is in good order. We can discuss this off-list if you wish it.
                 
                I would be more than happy to resume the discussioin with PMCV
                as regards these alleged Gnostics in Lebanon and their use, or lack,
                of hermeneutic process. I leave it up to the moderators.
                 
                Thank you for the gracious welcome.
                 
                Your sister and servant,
                 
                Widad
                 
                In a message dated 3/30/2006 4:16:52 PM Central Standard Time, Tsharpmin7@... writes:
                hello Widad.... a friend forwards posts to me from Gnostic
                Thought they think i might find interesting.  it's to the
                point now that i insist they send all of your posts to me,
                irregardless of the subject matter.  i'm convinced we have
                some mutual Friends; some "cultural anthropologists" in
                Dark England perhaps?
                 
                i'm familiar with the exchange that brought you to us for
                assistance and, since it's clear you have subsequently
                satisfied your search, i'll leave good enough alone.  fihi
                ma fihi.
                 
                if the moderators deem it permissible i would like to
                hear the latest news about these Lebanese Gnostics
                you've been keeping your eyes on. also, if permissible, it
                would be nice to get some resolution on the issue -- that
                was left unresolved due to some unforseen
                circumstances -- of hermeneutics and the Lebanese
                Gnostics.
                 
                so welcome aboard, Widad.  i join Cari in hoping you will
                be a regular contributor here.
                 
                your friend,
                 
                Crispin Sainte III
                 
              • lady_caritas
                ... house ... Hello, Widad and Crispin. I, for one, would be quite interested to hear discussion of alleged Gnostics in Lebanon. Perhaps you could summarize
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 30 3:48 PM
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I believe we do indeed have mutual Friends, Crispin, and their
                  house
                  > is in good order. We can discuss this off-list if you wish it.
                  >
                  > I would be more than happy to resume the discussioin with PMCV
                  > as regards these alleged Gnostics in Lebanon and their use, or lack,
                  > of hermeneutic process. I leave it up to the moderators.
                  >
                  > Thank you for the gracious welcome.
                  >
                  > Your sister and servant,
                  >
                  > Widad
                  >


                  Hello, Widad and Crispin. I, for one, would be quite interested to
                  hear discussion of alleged Gnostics in Lebanon. Perhaps you could
                  summarize discussion so far for those of us who were not following
                  that particular conversation elsewhere. Also, of course, this would
                  be an opportunity to compare/contrast to historical Gnostics, our
                  emphasis.

                  Cari
                • F8snafs@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/30/2006 5:49:16 PM Central Standard Time, ... house ... Hello, Widad and Crispin. I, for one, would be quite interested to hear
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 30 4:04 PM
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                    In a message dated 3/30/2006 5:49:16 PM Central Standard Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
                    >

                    > I believe we do indeed have mutual Friends, Crispin, and their
                    house
                    > is in good order. We can discuss this off-list if you wish it.

                    > I would be more than happy to resume the discussioin with PMCV
                    > as regards these alleged Gnostics in Lebanon and their use, or lack,
                    > of hermeneutic process. I leave it up to the moderators.

                    > Thank you for the gracious welcome.

                    > Your sister and servant,

                    > Widad



                    Hello, Widad and Crispin.  I, for one, would be quite interested to
                    hear discussion of alleged Gnostics in Lebanon.  Perhaps you could
                    summarize discussion so far for those of us who were not following
                    that particular conversation elsewhere.  Also, of course, this would
                    be an opportunity to compare/contrast to historical Gnostics, our
                    emphasis.

                    Cari
                    ===============================================
                    I'll gladly do so, Cari, however I think I should get PMCV's
                    consent as well since I'll be pasting together material that both
                    he and I had posted elsewhere, some of which he has alluded
                    to recently in his excellent hermeneutics piece.
                     
                    Your servant,
                     
                    Widad
                  • pmcvflag
                    Hey Widad Lady Cari and Gerry both are mods of this group as well, and I think after this many years we speak for each other sometimes. I consider anything I
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 30 8:59 PM
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                      Hey Widad

                      Lady Cari and Gerry both are mods of this group as well, and I think
                      after this many years we speak for each other sometimes. I consider
                      anything I write in the Yahoo forums to be usable by anyone who uses
                      it honestly and with credit (which I think you would do anyway).
                      However, obviously I can't give permission for anything else anyone
                      may write in another forum. Yahoo has been very strict about this,
                      and hopefully without seeming paranoid I don't want our intent
                      twisted by people who may misunderstand our purpose here even if it
                      is friendly. So let me say now that you can use anything I say (and
                      that includes if you wish to use it in any other group)... but
                      please paraphrase anything you say here that any other person in any
                      other group may have said (which you have done a very good job at
                      anyway).... or quote directly so that we can claim "fair usage".

                      Besides that short caution, I am equally interested to hear more of
                      your story. I think it could open many conversation topics. Perhaps,
                      as Lady Caritas suggests, you could give us the backdrop of the
                      conversation for all those who may have missed it?

                      PMCV

                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 3/30/2006 5:49:16 PM Central Standard Time,
                      > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, F8snafs@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I believe we do indeed have mutual Friends, Crispin, and their
                      > house
                      > > is in good order. We can discuss this off-list if you wish it.
                      > >
                      > > I would be more than happy to resume the discussioin with PMCV
                      > > as regards these alleged Gnostics in Lebanon and their use, or
                      lack,
                      > > of hermeneutic process. I leave it up to the moderators.
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for the gracious welcome.
                      > >
                      > > Your sister and servant,
                      > >
                      > > Widad
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello, Widad and Crispin. I, for one, would be quite interested
                      to
                      > hear discussion of alleged Gnostics in Lebanon. Perhaps you
                      could
                      > summarize discussion so far for those of us who were not
                      following
                      > that particular conversation elsewhere. Also, of course, this
                      would
                      > be an opportunity to compare/contrast to historical Gnostics, our
                      > emphasis.
                      >
                      > Cari
                      >
                      >
                      > ===============================================
                      > I'll gladly do so, Cari, however I think I should get PMCV's
                      > consent as well since I'll be pasting together material that both
                      > he and I had posted elsewhere, some of which he has alluded
                      > to recently in his excellent hermeneutics piece.
                      >
                      > Your servant,
                      >
                      > Widad
                      >
                    • Gerry
                      ... Crispin, I m certain that a number of people have developed an affinity for Widad s posts. Her humor, her compassion, her wit … what s not to love
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 31 9:24 AM
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                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Tsharpmin7@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > hello Widad.... a friend forwards posts to me from Gnostic
                        > Thought they think i might find interesting. it's to the
                        > point now that i insist they send all of your posts to me,
                        > irregardless of the subject matter…. 

                         

                        Crispin, I'm certain that a number of people have developed an affinity for Widad's posts.  Her humor, her compassion, her wit … what's not to love there, especially with a name like Widad!  ;-)

                         


                        > [. . .]

                        > if the moderators deem it permissible i would like to
                        > hear the latest news about these Lebanese Gnostics
                        > you've been keeping your eyes on. also, if permissible, it
                        > would be nice to get some resolution on the issue -- that
                        > was left unresolved due to some unforseen
                        > circumstances -- of hermeneutics and the Lebanese
                        > Gnostics.
                        >
                        > so welcome aboard, Widad. i join Cari in hoping you will
                        > be a regular contributor here.
                        >
                        > your friend,
                        >
                        > Crispin Sainte III
                        >

                         

                        I suppose I knew that PMCV would have apprised me of any new developments concerning the Lebanese connection, but since I've been too busy to even write him or Widad about it directly, I appreciate your bringing it up here.  It's definitely topical … of course, that is, until such time as Widad informs us that Jesus' true love-child was spirited away to Lebanon rather than the south of France.  Hey, we gotta draw the line somewhere!  ;-)

                        Gerry

                      • Tsharpmin7@aol.com
                        for those who haven t been following her posts at Gnostic Thought, Widad is not her proper name but a term of endearment/nickname her father called her by
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 31 12:33 PM
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                          for those who haven't been following her posts at Gnostic
                          Thought, "Widad" is not her proper name but a term of endearment/nickname her father called her by when she
                          was a child.  i'm told the roots of "widad" in Arabic and Farsi
                          can signify love, the object of parental love, friendship and
                          beautiful letters.
                           
                          Crispin Sainte III
                           
                          In a message dated 3/31/2006 11:28:10 AM Central Standard Time, gerryhsp@... writes:
                          Crispin, I'm certain that a number of people have developed an affinity for Widad's posts.  Her humor, her compassion, her wit … what's not to love there, especially with a name like Widad!  ;-)
                           
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