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satan

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  • Angel Ruling Scorpion
    Hi, I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Tarot is hocus pocus,
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
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      Hi,

      I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there
      gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?


      Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
      squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
      Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room, and
      any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
    • lady_caritas
      ... Are there ... to ... Harry ... room, and ... Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion occurring almost two years ago, which
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 4, 2006
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil.
        Are there
        > gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?
        >
        >
        > Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs
        to
        > squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for
        Harry
        > Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne
        room, and
        > any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
        >


        Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion
        occurring almost two years ago, which might help. Actually,
        satan/devil wasn't a major preoccupation for the Gnostics, and the
        few occurrences in mythology could be viewed as metaphorical.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/message/9527

        As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:

        "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
        greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"

        Feel free to bring any more questions or comments to the group. And
        perhaps other members have some wisdom to share.

        Cari
      • Frederick Polgardy
        By the same logic, why does there need to be THE DEMIURGE at all? ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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          By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
          :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
          probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
          they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
          As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
          on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
          individual ignorance participates in.

          Just a thought...

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
          > As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:
          >
          > "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
          > greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"
        • phillipetaylor
          ... wrote: I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Well, I can tell
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
            wrote:

            "I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are
            there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?"

            Well, I can tell you what a Sophian Gnostic perspective is on this
            subject. There is the perspective of a Cosmic Ignorance, which is
            proposed in several texts that Sophian Gnostic use, such as the Zohar,
            the Origin of the World and all the texts of the Bible. I don't think
            the Bible ISN'T a Gnostic text, I think they key to this idea is that
            Gnostic tend to INTERPRET the bible quite differently than
            Funamdentalists do. But regardless, Cosmic Ignorance plays itself out
            as both forces that oppose the divine will and forces that don't always
            oppose it, but that also don't always help it along. The forces that
            oppose the Divine will are personified by Satan, or the Devil, and the
            forces that don't oppose but don't support the Divine plan are
            called "Archons" and the Demiurge. But both proceed from a Cosmic
            Ignorance, according to Sophian Gnostic Tradition.


            I'm not really sure what this other part you wrote is about, and am
            unsure how to respond, it seems a bit tangential to your question...:

            "Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
            squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
            Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room,
            and any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination."



            Phillip
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Frederick ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity. As
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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              Hey Frederick

              >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
              :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
              probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
              they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
              As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
              on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
              individual ignorance participates in.<<<

              Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
              but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance, at
              least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
              rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
              be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I would
              question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
              replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
              essential picture.

              So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
              discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
              you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.

              The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
              mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
              in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
              the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
              reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
              literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
              spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the philosophical/spiritual
              point of the "Mystery".

              PMCV
            • Steve
              ... all? ... I ve ... entity. ... going ... own ... at ... would ... philosophical/spiritual ... Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a field of
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 17, 2006
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey Frederick
                >
                > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                all?
                > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                I've
                > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                entity.
                > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                going
                > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my
                own
                > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                >
                > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
                > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance,
                at
                > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
                > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                would
                > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                > essential picture.
                >
                > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
                > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                >
                > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
                > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
                > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
                > the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
                > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
                > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
                > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                philosophical/spiritual
                > point of the "Mystery".
                >
                > PMCV
                >
                Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce it
                all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                me as being a distorted reflection.
                Yours, Steve W.
              • lady_caritas
                ... say ... my ... as real ... instance, ... should ... idea ... the ... flaw ... Since ... philosophically ... obvious ... the ... it ... Well put, Steve.
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 20, 2006
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hey Frederick
                  > >
                  > > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                  > all?
                  > > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                  > I've
                  > > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might
                  say
                  > > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                  > entity.
                  > > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                  > going
                  > > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that
                  my
                  > own
                  > > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                  > >
                  > > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge
                  as "real
                  > > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For
                  instance,
                  > at
                  > > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                  > > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they
                  should
                  > > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                  > would
                  > > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                  > > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                  > > essential picture.
                  > >
                  > > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                  > > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance"
                  idea
                  > > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                  > >
                  > > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that
                  the
                  > > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the
                  flaw
                  > > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome.
                  Since
                  > > the creator god that most people worship cannot be
                  philosophically
                  > > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the
                  obvious
                  > > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to
                  the
                  > > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                  > philosophical/spiritual
                  > > point of the "Mystery".
                  > >
                  > > PMCV
                  > >
                  > Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                  > ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                  > idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce
                  it
                  > all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                  > tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                  > Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                  > the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                  > me as being a distorted reflection.
                  > Yours, Steve W.
                  >


                  Well put, Steve.

                  Cari
                • thalprin
                  Sorry I m a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion though and I will try and reply soon. Best wishes, Terrie
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 13 11:39 AM
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                    Sorry I'm a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion
                    though and I will try and reply soon.

                    Best wishes,

                    Terrie
                  • esapress@ymail.com
                    Hi, It s been awhile since I said hello and I thought I d like to today. I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
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                      Hi,

                      It's been awhile since I said hello and I thought I'd like to today.

                      I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding interest for me.

                      Best wishes,

                      Terrie
                      http://www.esapress.com/
                    • esapress@ymail.com
                      Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
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                        Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.


                        Best wishes,

                        Terrie
                        http://www.esapress.com/
                      • lady_caritas
                        ... Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too. Getting facts straight is
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
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                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "esapress@..." <esapress@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.
                          >
                          >
                          > Best wishes,
                          >
                          > Terrie
                          > http://www.esapress.com/
                          >


                          Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.

                          Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.

                          Cari
                        • esapress@ymail.com
                          Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn t it, and there s so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 14, 2009
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                            Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn't it, and there's so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up a bit here pretty soon,

                            Always a pleasure,

                            Terrie


                            >
                            > Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.
                            >
                            > Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.
                            >
                            > Cari
                            >
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