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  • thalprin
    Hi, ... we ... ifn ... would ... considered ... Yup, no doubt about it. ... can ... Cari, this is a fascinating read, thanks. ... of ... of ... rare ... Yeah,
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
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      Hi,

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello thalprin
      > >
      > > On 03/02/06, you wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
      > > > diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn
      we
      > went
      > > > looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see
      ifn
      > > > any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked
      > possibly?)
      > > > by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o
      would
      > we
      > > > be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
      > > > intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.
      > > >
      > > > It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!
      > > >
      > > > Best wishes,
      > > >
      > > > Terrie
      > >
      > > Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been
      considered
      > > the source of all life.


      Yup, no doubt about it.


      > >
      > > Regards
      > > --
      > > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
      > >
      >
      >
      > Mary Magdalene has had quite a colorful popular history. Details
      can
      > be found in the following recent New Yorker article by Joan
      > Acocella. And, yes, Mary Magdalene of the Gnostics is finally
      > addressed to some extent about halfway through the article.
      >
      > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060213fa_fact2
      >


      Cari, this is a fascinating read, thanks.



      > Also, Terrie and Mike, as mentioned in the article, we're reminded
      of
      > a "sea" reference ~
      >
      > "Finally, unlike many other females in the Gospels¬óMary the mother
      of
      > James, Mary the wife of Cleophas, etc.¬óMary Magdalene, when she is
      > named, is identified not by a relationship with a man but by her
      > city, Magdala, a prosperous fishing village on the Sea of Galilee.
      > Thus the Magdalene was probably a woman who lived on her own, a
      rare
      > and suspect thing in Jewish society of the period."
      >


      Yeah, and those matters/perspectives could easily have been an
      issue - in a sense a culture shock/clash, perhaps. For example,
      they say folks (Romans, Greek, Gaul, I think that's right,) were
      disturbed and astronished upon seeing Etruscan women dinning in
      mixed company, +they were owning propetry, they had individual names
      and they were out and about as free women and or an affectionate
      woman so to speak. Evidently that was enough, and at the time it
      gave alot of folks some very juicey ideas about how these women/men
      lived.



      > Cari
      >


      Best wishes,

      Terrie
    • Angel Ruling Scorpion
      Hi, I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Tarot is hocus pocus,
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
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        Hi,

        I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there
        gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?


        Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
        squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
        Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room, and
        any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
      • lady_caritas
        ... Are there ... to ... Harry ... room, and ... Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion occurring almost two years ago, which
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 4, 2006
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil.
          Are there
          > gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?
          >
          >
          > Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs
          to
          > squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for
          Harry
          > Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne
          room, and
          > any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
          >


          Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion
          occurring almost two years ago, which might help. Actually,
          satan/devil wasn't a major preoccupation for the Gnostics, and the
          few occurrences in mythology could be viewed as metaphorical.

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/message/9527

          As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:

          "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
          greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"

          Feel free to bring any more questions or comments to the group. And
          perhaps other members have some wisdom to share.

          Cari
        • Frederick Polgardy
          By the same logic, why does there need to be THE DEMIURGE at all? ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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            By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
            :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
            probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
            they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
            As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
            on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
            individual ignorance participates in.

            Just a thought...

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
            > As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:
            >
            > "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
            > greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"
          • phillipetaylor
            ... wrote: I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Well, I can tell
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
              wrote:

              "I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are
              there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?"

              Well, I can tell you what a Sophian Gnostic perspective is on this
              subject. There is the perspective of a Cosmic Ignorance, which is
              proposed in several texts that Sophian Gnostic use, such as the Zohar,
              the Origin of the World and all the texts of the Bible. I don't think
              the Bible ISN'T a Gnostic text, I think they key to this idea is that
              Gnostic tend to INTERPRET the bible quite differently than
              Funamdentalists do. But regardless, Cosmic Ignorance plays itself out
              as both forces that oppose the divine will and forces that don't always
              oppose it, but that also don't always help it along. The forces that
              oppose the Divine will are personified by Satan, or the Devil, and the
              forces that don't oppose but don't support the Divine plan are
              called "Archons" and the Demiurge. But both proceed from a Cosmic
              Ignorance, according to Sophian Gnostic Tradition.


              I'm not really sure what this other part you wrote is about, and am
              unsure how to respond, it seems a bit tangential to your question...:

              "Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
              squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
              Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room,
              and any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination."



              Phillip
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Frederick ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity. As
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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                Hey Frederick

                >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
                :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
                probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
                As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
                on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
                individual ignorance participates in.<<<

                Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
                but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance, at
                least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
                be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I would
                question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                essential picture.

                So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
                you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.

                The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
                mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
                in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
                the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
                reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
                literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
                spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the philosophical/spiritual
                point of the "Mystery".

                PMCV
              • Steve
                ... all? ... I ve ... entity. ... going ... own ... at ... would ... philosophical/spiritual ... Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a field of
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 17, 2006
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Frederick
                  >
                  > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                  all?
                  > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                  I've
                  > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                  > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                  entity.
                  > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                  going
                  > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my
                  own
                  > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                  >
                  > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
                  > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance,
                  at
                  > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                  > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
                  > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                  would
                  > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                  > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                  > essential picture.
                  >
                  > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                  > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
                  > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                  >
                  > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
                  > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
                  > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
                  > the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
                  > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
                  > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
                  > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                  philosophical/spiritual
                  > point of the "Mystery".
                  >
                  > PMCV
                  >
                  Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                  ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                  idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce it
                  all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                  tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                  Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                  the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                  me as being a distorted reflection.
                  Yours, Steve W.
                • lady_caritas
                  ... say ... my ... as real ... instance, ... should ... idea ... the ... flaw ... Since ... philosophically ... obvious ... the ... it ... Well put, Steve.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 20, 2006
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hey Frederick
                    > >
                    > > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                    > all?
                    > > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                    > I've
                    > > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might
                    say
                    > > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                    > entity.
                    > > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                    > going
                    > > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that
                    my
                    > own
                    > > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                    > >
                    > > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge
                    as "real
                    > > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For
                    instance,
                    > at
                    > > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                    > > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they
                    should
                    > > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                    > would
                    > > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                    > > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                    > > essential picture.
                    > >
                    > > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                    > > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance"
                    idea
                    > > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                    > >
                    > > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that
                    the
                    > > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the
                    flaw
                    > > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome.
                    Since
                    > > the creator god that most people worship cannot be
                    philosophically
                    > > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the
                    obvious
                    > > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to
                    the
                    > > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                    > philosophical/spiritual
                    > > point of the "Mystery".
                    > >
                    > > PMCV
                    > >
                    > Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                    > ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                    > idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce
                    it
                    > all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                    > tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                    > Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                    > the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                    > me as being a distorted reflection.
                    > Yours, Steve W.
                    >


                    Well put, Steve.

                    Cari
                  • thalprin
                    Sorry I m a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion though and I will try and reply soon. Best wishes, Terrie
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 13, 2006
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                      Sorry I'm a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion
                      though and I will try and reply soon.

                      Best wishes,

                      Terrie
                    • esapress@ymail.com
                      Hi, It s been awhile since I said hello and I thought I d like to today. I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
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                        Hi,

                        It's been awhile since I said hello and I thought I'd like to today.

                        I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding interest for me.

                        Best wishes,

                        Terrie
                        http://www.esapress.com/
                      • esapress@ymail.com
                        Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
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                          Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.


                          Best wishes,

                          Terrie
                          http://www.esapress.com/
                        • lady_caritas
                          ... Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too. Getting facts straight is
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "esapress@..." <esapress@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.
                            >
                            >
                            > Best wishes,
                            >
                            > Terrie
                            > http://www.esapress.com/
                            >


                            Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.

                            Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.

                            Cari
                          • esapress@ymail.com
                            Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn t it, and there s so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 14, 2009
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                              Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn't it, and there's so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up a bit here pretty soon,

                              Always a pleasure,

                              Terrie


                              >
                              > Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.
                              >
                              > Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.
                              >
                              > Cari
                              >
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