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  • Mike Leavitt
    Hello thalprin ... Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been considered the source of all life. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
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      Hello thalprin

      On 03/02/06, you wrote:

      >
      > In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
      > diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn we went
      > looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see ifn
      > any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked possibly?)
      > by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o would we
      > be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
      > intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.
      >
      > It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!
      >
      > Best wishes,
      >
      > Terrie

      Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been considered
      the source of all life.

      Regards
      --
      Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
    • lady_caritas
      ... went ... possibly?) ... we ... Mary Magdalene has had quite a colorful popular history. Details can be found in the following recent New Yorker article by
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello thalprin
        >
        > On 03/02/06, you wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
        > > diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn we
        went
        > > looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see ifn
        > > any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked
        possibly?)
        > > by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o would
        we
        > > be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
        > > intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.
        > >
        > > It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!
        > >
        > > Best wishes,
        > >
        > > Terrie
        >
        > Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been considered
        > the source of all life.
        >
        > Regards
        > --
        > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
        >


        Mary Magdalene has had quite a colorful popular history. Details can
        be found in the following recent New Yorker article by Joan
        Acocella. And, yes, Mary Magdalene of the Gnostics is finally
        addressed to some extent about halfway through the article.

        http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060213fa_fact2

        Also, Terrie and Mike, as mentioned in the article, we're reminded of
        a "sea" reference ~

        "Finally, unlike many other females in the Gospels—Mary the mother of
        James, Mary the wife of Cleophas, etc.—Mary Magdalene, when she is
        named, is identified not by a relationship with a man but by her
        city, Magdala, a prosperous fishing village on the Sea of Galilee.
        Thus the Magdalene was probably a woman who lived on her own, a rare
        and suspect thing in Jewish society of the period."

        Cari
      • thalprin
        Hi, ... we ... ifn ... would ... considered ... Yup, no doubt about it. ... can ... Cari, this is a fascinating read, thanks. ... of ... of ... rare ... Yeah,
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
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          Hi,

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello thalprin
          > >
          > > On 03/02/06, you wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > > In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
          > > > diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn
          we
          > went
          > > > looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see
          ifn
          > > > any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked
          > possibly?)
          > > > by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o
          would
          > we
          > > > be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
          > > > intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.
          > > >
          > > > It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!
          > > >
          > > > Best wishes,
          > > >
          > > > Terrie
          > >
          > > Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been
          considered
          > > the source of all life.


          Yup, no doubt about it.


          > >
          > > Regards
          > > --
          > > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
          > >
          >
          >
          > Mary Magdalene has had quite a colorful popular history. Details
          can
          > be found in the following recent New Yorker article by Joan
          > Acocella. And, yes, Mary Magdalene of the Gnostics is finally
          > addressed to some extent about halfway through the article.
          >
          > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060213fa_fact2
          >


          Cari, this is a fascinating read, thanks.



          > Also, Terrie and Mike, as mentioned in the article, we're reminded
          of
          > a "sea" reference ~
          >
          > "Finally, unlike many other females in the Gospels—Mary the mother
          of
          > James, Mary the wife of Cleophas, etc.—Mary Magdalene, when she is
          > named, is identified not by a relationship with a man but by her
          > city, Magdala, a prosperous fishing village on the Sea of Galilee.
          > Thus the Magdalene was probably a woman who lived on her own, a
          rare
          > and suspect thing in Jewish society of the period."
          >


          Yeah, and those matters/perspectives could easily have been an
          issue - in a sense a culture shock/clash, perhaps. For example,
          they say folks (Romans, Greek, Gaul, I think that's right,) were
          disturbed and astronished upon seeing Etruscan women dinning in
          mixed company, +they were owning propetry, they had individual names
          and they were out and about as free women and or an affectionate
          woman so to speak. Evidently that was enough, and at the time it
          gave alot of folks some very juicey ideas about how these women/men
          lived.



          > Cari
          >


          Best wishes,

          Terrie
        • Angel Ruling Scorpion
          Hi, I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Tarot is hocus pocus,
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
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            Hi,

            I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there
            gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?


            Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
            squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
            Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room, and
            any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
          • lady_caritas
            ... Are there ... to ... Harry ... room, and ... Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion occurring almost two years ago, which
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 4, 2006
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil.
              Are there
              > gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?
              >
              >
              > Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs
              to
              > squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for
              Harry
              > Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne
              room, and
              > any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
              >


              Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion
              occurring almost two years ago, which might help. Actually,
              satan/devil wasn't a major preoccupation for the Gnostics, and the
              few occurrences in mythology could be viewed as metaphorical.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/message/9527

              As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:

              "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
              greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"

              Feel free to bring any more questions or comments to the group. And
              perhaps other members have some wisdom to share.

              Cari
            • Frederick Polgardy
              By the same logic, why does there need to be THE DEMIURGE at all? ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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                By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
                :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
                probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
                As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
                on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
                individual ignorance participates in.

                Just a thought...

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
                > As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:
                >
                > "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
                > greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"
              • phillipetaylor
                ... wrote: I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Well, I can tell
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
                  wrote:

                  "I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are
                  there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?"

                  Well, I can tell you what a Sophian Gnostic perspective is on this
                  subject. There is the perspective of a Cosmic Ignorance, which is
                  proposed in several texts that Sophian Gnostic use, such as the Zohar,
                  the Origin of the World and all the texts of the Bible. I don't think
                  the Bible ISN'T a Gnostic text, I think they key to this idea is that
                  Gnostic tend to INTERPRET the bible quite differently than
                  Funamdentalists do. But regardless, Cosmic Ignorance plays itself out
                  as both forces that oppose the divine will and forces that don't always
                  oppose it, but that also don't always help it along. The forces that
                  oppose the Divine will are personified by Satan, or the Devil, and the
                  forces that don't oppose but don't support the Divine plan are
                  called "Archons" and the Demiurge. But both proceed from a Cosmic
                  Ignorance, according to Sophian Gnostic Tradition.


                  I'm not really sure what this other part you wrote is about, and am
                  unsure how to respond, it seems a bit tangential to your question...:

                  "Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
                  squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
                  Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room,
                  and any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination."



                  Phillip
                • pmcvflag
                  Hey Frederick ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity. As
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
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                    Hey Frederick

                    >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
                    :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
                    probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                    they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
                    As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
                    on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
                    individual ignorance participates in.<<<

                    Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
                    but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance, at
                    least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                    rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
                    be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I would
                    question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                    replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                    essential picture.

                    So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                    discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
                    you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.

                    The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
                    mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
                    in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
                    the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
                    reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
                    literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
                    spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the philosophical/spiritual
                    point of the "Mystery".

                    PMCV
                  • Steve
                    ... all? ... I ve ... entity. ... going ... own ... at ... would ... philosophical/spiritual ... Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a field of
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 17, 2006
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Frederick
                      >
                      > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                      all?
                      > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                      I've
                      > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                      > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                      entity.
                      > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                      going
                      > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my
                      own
                      > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                      >
                      > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
                      > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance,
                      at
                      > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                      > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
                      > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                      would
                      > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                      > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                      > essential picture.
                      >
                      > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                      > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
                      > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                      >
                      > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
                      > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
                      > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
                      > the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
                      > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
                      > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
                      > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                      philosophical/spiritual
                      > point of the "Mystery".
                      >
                      > PMCV
                      >
                      Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                      ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                      idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce it
                      all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                      tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                      Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                      the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                      me as being a distorted reflection.
                      Yours, Steve W.
                    • lady_caritas
                      ... say ... my ... as real ... instance, ... should ... idea ... the ... flaw ... Since ... philosophically ... obvious ... the ... it ... Well put, Steve.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 20, 2006
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                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hey Frederick
                        > >
                        > > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                        > all?
                        > > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                        > I've
                        > > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might
                        say
                        > > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                        > entity.
                        > > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                        > going
                        > > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that
                        my
                        > own
                        > > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                        > >
                        > > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge
                        as "real
                        > > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For
                        instance,
                        > at
                        > > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                        > > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they
                        should
                        > > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                        > would
                        > > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                        > > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                        > > essential picture.
                        > >
                        > > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                        > > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance"
                        idea
                        > > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                        > >
                        > > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that
                        the
                        > > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the
                        flaw
                        > > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome.
                        Since
                        > > the creator god that most people worship cannot be
                        philosophically
                        > > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the
                        obvious
                        > > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to
                        the
                        > > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                        > philosophical/spiritual
                        > > point of the "Mystery".
                        > >
                        > > PMCV
                        > >
                        > Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                        > ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                        > idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce
                        it
                        > all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                        > tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                        > Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                        > the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                        > me as being a distorted reflection.
                        > Yours, Steve W.
                        >


                        Well put, Steve.

                        Cari
                      • thalprin
                        Sorry I m a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion though and I will try and reply soon. Best wishes, Terrie
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 13 11:39 AM
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                          Sorry I'm a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion
                          though and I will try and reply soon.

                          Best wishes,

                          Terrie
                        • esapress@ymail.com
                          Hi, It s been awhile since I said hello and I thought I d like to today. I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
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                            Hi,

                            It's been awhile since I said hello and I thought I'd like to today.

                            I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding interest for me.

                            Best wishes,

                            Terrie
                            http://www.esapress.com/
                          • esapress@ymail.com
                            Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
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                              Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.


                              Best wishes,

                              Terrie
                              http://www.esapress.com/
                            • lady_caritas
                              ... Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too. Getting facts straight is
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
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                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "esapress@..." <esapress@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.
                                >
                                >
                                > Best wishes,
                                >
                                > Terrie
                                > http://www.esapress.com/
                                >


                                Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.

                                Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.

                                Cari
                              • esapress@ymail.com
                                Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn t it, and there s so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 14, 2009
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                                  Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn't it, and there's so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up a bit here pretty soon,

                                  Always a pleasure,

                                  Terrie


                                  >
                                  > Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.
                                  >
                                  > Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.
                                  >
                                  > Cari
                                  >
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