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  • thalprin
    Hi, I hope you don t mind my writing but I ve been enjoying your Mary discussion and so I just joined your list because I have a few questions about (and some
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 2, 2006
      Hi,

      I hope you don't mind my writing but I've been enjoying your Mary
      discussion and so I just joined your list because I have a few
      questions about (and some interest in) this subject too + just a
      little data that I can offer, which may or maynot help, dunno.

      I'd really like to see you folks figure this riddle out!


      Maria Theresa of Austria is an example of a woman/ruler who named
      all 11 of her daughters Marie:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_of_Austria

      I think Maria Theresa's story of naming all her girls Marie (besides
      being fun, funny, and clever wit to boot) could simply be a common
      historical/regalia practise not so unlike fathers name-saking their
      sons.

      Also I heard from a historian that it was a pretty common practise
      in (for instance) Rome for daughters to have/share the same first
      name. Which is one of the things (perspectives towards women) that
      made the Etruscans so unusual or distinct for their time.

      And (concerning spelling/names) there's such a diff. between (for
      example) Marie (sea) and Mary (bitter.) I called my X this morning
      and asked him how Mary was meant/spelled originally (he went to
      Hebrew school) in the Bible and he say he thought it was Mariam, he
      say he thought he remembered it meaning sea. ?

      This is interesting I think, and as a woman yes I'd not prefer (if
      sea was said) to have that sea changed into a/o remain a bitter
      (bitters?) instead, as architypical a/o mythic represenation of
      feminine principals.


      In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
      diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn we went
      looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see ifn
      any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked possibly?)
      by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o would we
      be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
      intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.

      It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!

      Best wishes,

      Terrie
    • Mike Leavitt
      Hello thalprin ... Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been considered the source of all life. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
        Hello thalprin

        On 03/02/06, you wrote:

        >
        > In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
        > diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn we went
        > looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see ifn
        > any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked possibly?)
        > by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o would we
        > be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
        > intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.
        >
        > It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!
        >
        > Best wishes,
        >
        > Terrie

        Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been considered
        the source of all life.

        Regards
        --
        Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
      • lady_caritas
        ... went ... possibly?) ... we ... Mary Magdalene has had quite a colorful popular history. Details can be found in the following recent New Yorker article by
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello thalprin
          >
          > On 03/02/06, you wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
          > > diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn we
          went
          > > looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see ifn
          > > any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked
          possibly?)
          > > by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o would
          we
          > > be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
          > > intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.
          > >
          > > It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!
          > >
          > > Best wishes,
          > >
          > > Terrie
          >
          > Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been considered
          > the source of all life.
          >
          > Regards
          > --
          > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
          >


          Mary Magdalene has had quite a colorful popular history. Details can
          be found in the following recent New Yorker article by Joan
          Acocella. And, yes, Mary Magdalene of the Gnostics is finally
          addressed to some extent about halfway through the article.

          http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060213fa_fact2

          Also, Terrie and Mike, as mentioned in the article, we're reminded of
          a "sea" reference ~

          "Finally, unlike many other females in the Gospels—Mary the mother of
          James, Mary the wife of Cleophas, etc.—Mary Magdalene, when she is
          named, is identified not by a relationship with a man but by her
          city, Magdala, a prosperous fishing village on the Sea of Galilee.
          Thus the Magdalene was probably a woman who lived on her own, a rare
          and suspect thing in Jewish society of the period."

          Cari
        • thalprin
          Hi, ... we ... ifn ... would ... considered ... Yup, no doubt about it. ... can ... Cari, this is a fascinating read, thanks. ... of ... of ... rare ... Yeah,
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
            Hi,

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello thalprin
            > >
            > > On 03/02/06, you wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > > In a biblical or historical context I'd suppose a great deal of
            > > > diff. between for example: bitter and sea - for example, ifn
            we
            > went
            > > > looking to survey for factual roots would we be looking to see
            ifn
            > > > any sea fairing people were being governed (or namesaked
            > possibly?)
            > > > by a woman/woman's family-line at or around those times a/o
            would
            > we
            > > > be surveying bitter lands (bitter-sea?) - really, it's quite
            > > > intersting. Perhaps it is meant to mean something.
            > > >
            > > > It'd be so exciting if you all could solve this riddle!
            > > >
            > > > Best wishes,
            > > >
            > > > Terrie
            > >
            > > Not specifically gnostically, but the sea has often been
            considered
            > > the source of all life.


            Yup, no doubt about it.


            > >
            > > Regards
            > > --
            > > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
            > >
            >
            >
            > Mary Magdalene has had quite a colorful popular history. Details
            can
            > be found in the following recent New Yorker article by Joan
            > Acocella. And, yes, Mary Magdalene of the Gnostics is finally
            > addressed to some extent about halfway through the article.
            >
            > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060213fa_fact2
            >


            Cari, this is a fascinating read, thanks.



            > Also, Terrie and Mike, as mentioned in the article, we're reminded
            of
            > a "sea" reference ~
            >
            > "Finally, unlike many other females in the Gospels—Mary the mother
            of
            > James, Mary the wife of Cleophas, etc.—Mary Magdalene, when she is
            > named, is identified not by a relationship with a man but by her
            > city, Magdala, a prosperous fishing village on the Sea of Galilee.
            > Thus the Magdalene was probably a woman who lived on her own, a
            rare
            > and suspect thing in Jewish society of the period."
            >


            Yeah, and those matters/perspectives could easily have been an
            issue - in a sense a culture shock/clash, perhaps. For example,
            they say folks (Romans, Greek, Gaul, I think that's right,) were
            disturbed and astronished upon seeing Etruscan women dinning in
            mixed company, +they were owning propetry, they had individual names
            and they were out and about as free women and or an affectionate
            woman so to speak. Evidently that was enough, and at the time it
            gave alot of folks some very juicey ideas about how these women/men
            lived.



            > Cari
            >


            Best wishes,

            Terrie
          • Angel Ruling Scorpion
            Hi, I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Tarot is hocus pocus,
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
              Hi,

              I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there
              gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?


              Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
              squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
              Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room, and
              any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
            • lady_caritas
              ... Are there ... to ... Harry ... room, and ... Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion occurring almost two years ago, which
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 4, 2006
                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil.
                Are there
                > gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?
                >
                >
                > Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs
                to
                > squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for
                Harry
                > Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne
                room, and
                > any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination.
                >


                Hello, josiellvx. I was able to dig up a past post from a discussion
                occurring almost two years ago, which might help. Actually,
                satan/devil wasn't a major preoccupation for the Gnostics, and the
                few occurrences in mythology could be viewed as metaphorical.

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/message/9527

                As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:

                "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
                greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"

                Feel free to bring any more questions or comments to the group. And
                perhaps other members have some wisdom to share.

                Cari
              • Frederick Polgardy
                By the same logic, why does there need to be THE DEMIURGE at all? ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
                  By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
                  :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
                  probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                  they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
                  As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
                  on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
                  individual ignorance participates in.

                  Just a thought...

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  > As PMCV wrote in a post during this past discussion:
                  >
                  > "Why does there need to be "THE DEVIL" at all? Why does man need any
                  > greater adversary than his or her own ignorance?"
                • phillipetaylor
                  ... wrote: I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject? Well, I can tell
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Angel Ruling Scorpion <sosol@...>
                    wrote:

                    "I am curious what is the gnostics attitude towards Satan/Devil. Are
                    there gnostic scriptures that also deal with this subject?"

                    Well, I can tell you what a Sophian Gnostic perspective is on this
                    subject. There is the perspective of a Cosmic Ignorance, which is
                    proposed in several texts that Sophian Gnostic use, such as the Zohar,
                    the Origin of the World and all the texts of the Bible. I don't think
                    the Bible ISN'T a Gnostic text, I think they key to this idea is that
                    Gnostic tend to INTERPRET the bible quite differently than
                    Funamdentalists do. But regardless, Cosmic Ignorance plays itself out
                    as both forces that oppose the divine will and forces that don't always
                    oppose it, but that also don't always help it along. The forces that
                    oppose the Divine will are personified by Satan, or the Devil, and the
                    forces that don't oppose but don't support the Divine plan are
                    called "Archons" and the Demiurge. But both proceed from a Cosmic
                    Ignorance, according to Sophian Gnostic Tradition.


                    I'm not really sure what this other part you wrote is about, and am
                    unsure how to respond, it seems a bit tangential to your question...:

                    "Tarot is hocus pocus, Crystal Balls are for ladies with neon signs to
                    squeeze money out of people who need therapy, Pentacles are for Harry
                    Potter wannabes who play RPG, there is no sex in the champagne room,
                    and any possibilities of me knowing magick is just an imagination."



                    Phillip
                  • pmcvflag
                    Hey Frederick ... probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity. As
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 6, 2006
                      Hey Frederick

                      >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at all?
                      :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings, I've
                      probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                      they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal, entity.
                      As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's going
                      on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my own
                      individual ignorance participates in.<<<

                      Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
                      but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance, at
                      least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                      rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
                      be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I would
                      question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                      replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                      essential picture.

                      So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                      discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
                      you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.

                      The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
                      mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
                      in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
                      the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
                      reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
                      literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
                      spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the philosophical/spiritual
                      point of the "Mystery".

                      PMCV
                    • Steve
                      ... all? ... I ve ... entity. ... going ... own ... at ... would ... philosophical/spiritual ... Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a field of
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 17, 2006
                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hey Frederick
                        >
                        > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                        all?
                        > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                        I've
                        > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might say
                        > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                        entity.
                        > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                        going
                        > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that my
                        own
                        > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                        >
                        > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge as "real
                        > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For instance,
                        at
                        > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                        > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they should
                        > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                        would
                        > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                        > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                        > essential picture.
                        >
                        > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                        > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance" idea
                        > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                        >
                        > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that the
                        > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the flaw
                        > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome. Since
                        > the creator god that most people worship cannot be philosophically
                        > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the obvious
                        > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to the
                        > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                        philosophical/spiritual
                        > point of the "Mystery".
                        >
                        > PMCV
                        >
                        Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                        ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                        idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce it
                        all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                        tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                        Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                        the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                        me as being a distorted reflection.
                        Yours, Steve W.
                      • lady_caritas
                        ... say ... my ... as real ... instance, ... should ... idea ... the ... flaw ... Since ... philosophically ... obvious ... the ... it ... Well put, Steve.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 20, 2006
                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hey Frederick
                          > >
                          > > >>>By the same logic, why does there need to be "THE DEMIURGE" at
                          > all?
                          > > :-) As a Christian with strongly esoteric and gnostic leanings,
                          > I've
                          > > probably come to view Satan just about exactly as gnostics might
                          say
                          > > they view the Demiurge -- as a very real, yet supra-personal,
                          > entity.
                          > > As a way of saying there's more to ignorance than just what's
                          > going
                          > > on inside my own head -- a field of ignorace, if you will, that
                          my
                          > own
                          > > individual ignorance participates in.<<<
                          > >
                          > > Well, whether the historical Gnostics viewed the Demiurge
                          as "real
                          > > but supra-personal" is possible, but open to debate. For
                          instance,
                          > at
                          > > least some texts do seem to present the Demiurge as allegorical
                          > > rather than literal. If taken literally (though I doubt they
                          should
                          > > be) other texts present the Demiurge in a quite personal way. I
                          > would
                          > > question whether the historical Gnostics were generally simply
                          > > replacing Satan with the Demiurge, but still giving the same
                          > > essential picture.
                          > >
                          > > So, while the Demiurge as a being, or "entity", is open to
                          > > discussion, I do think that this sort of "field of ignorance"
                          idea
                          > > you present has some similarity with several Gnostic concepts.
                          > >
                          > > The answer as to why there needs to be a Demiurge would be that
                          the
                          > > mythological construct of Gnosticism depends on presenting the
                          flaw
                          > > in common hylic religious thinking as something to overcome.
                          Since
                          > > the creator god that most people worship cannot be
                          philosophically
                          > > reconciled with the deeper apophatic notion of spirit, the
                          obvious
                          > > literary device would be to set that creator up in contrast to
                          the
                          > > spiritual goal for the sake of explaining the
                          > philosophical/spiritual
                          > > point of the "Mystery".
                          > >
                          > > PMCV
                          > >
                          > Hi Karl. Yes I, too, tend to think in terms of a "field of
                          > ignorance" when I try to explain my personal take on the Demiurge
                          > idea. I try, now, to avoid both the solipsistic tendancy to reduce
                          it
                          > all to just an aspect of my personal consciousness as well as the
                          > tendancy to literalize it as a nasty Satanic being out to get us.
                          > Obviously (at least to me), the material world is a flawed image of
                          > the divine world as are certain aspects of my own mind. Both strike
                          > me as being a distorted reflection.
                          > Yours, Steve W.
                          >


                          Well put, Steve.

                          Cari
                        • thalprin
                          Sorry I m a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion though and I will try and reply soon. Best wishes, Terrie
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 13, 2006
                            Sorry I'm a bit busy at the moment. I am enjoying the discussion
                            though and I will try and reply soon.

                            Best wishes,

                            Terrie
                          • esapress@ymail.com
                            Hi, It s been awhile since I said hello and I thought I d like to today. I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
                              Hi,

                              It's been awhile since I said hello and I thought I'd like to today.

                              I am, and have been, very busy these days and/but gnosticism remains and abiding interest for me.

                              Best wishes,

                              Terrie
                              http://www.esapress.com/
                            • esapress@ymail.com
                              Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 3, 2009
                                Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.


                                Best wishes,

                                Terrie
                                http://www.esapress.com/
                              • lady_caritas
                                ... Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too. Getting facts straight is
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "esapress@..." <esapress@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Just wanted to add that I enjoy the historical and academic efforts/research of/in this group; truth is history is very important, especially so in religious fields, and/but getting our facts as accurate as is actually possible is, yup, no small task.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Best wishes,
                                  >
                                  > Terrie
                                  > http://www.esapress.com/
                                  >


                                  Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.

                                  Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.

                                  Cari
                                • esapress@ymail.com
                                  Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn t it, and there s so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 14, 2009
                                    Hi Cari, thanks for the kindly note. Sure is an ongoing process isn't it, and there's so very much to research. Hopefully some of our schedules will clear up a bit here pretty soon,

                                    Always a pleasure,

                                    Terrie


                                    >
                                    > Hello, Terrie. Thanks for stopping by and offering your encouraging comments. It seems that a lot of us are busy, too.
                                    >
                                    > Getting facts straight is certainly no small task. It's an ongoing process. We appreciate members bringing questions and comments to the board, so we can research together and offer each other feedback.
                                    >
                                    > Cari
                                    >
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