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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Valentinian Christians

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  • Benjamin BAum
    ... Yes ..but as you mentioned As David Brons mentioned in his essay on the organization of the Valentinian church, it seems that Valentinians didn t really
    Message 1 of 99 , Jan 5, 2006
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      On 1/5/06, Gerry <gerryhsp@...> wrote:


      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin BAum < hoomerick2@g...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > try
      > *St. Irenaeus of Lyons: Against the Heresies*
      >

       

      Given the relative paucity of firsthand Gnostic material available to us, it's pretty much a given that we will find ourselves synthesizing information from a wide spectrum of sources.  If I had to put my eggs in one basket, however, I really can't see going with St. Heresy Hunter, par excellence.  That would be rather like asking a Nazi to illuminate us on the finer points of Judaism.

      Gerry

       
      Yes ..but as you mentioned "As David Brons mentioned in his essay on the organization of the Valentinian church, it seems that Valentinians didn't really see themselves as "separate" from their increasingly orthodox brethren".....
       
      thus Gnosticism was within the "original" christianity...... but I dont really feel the need to scream from the rafters "I am not like them" as many do...... Iraneus' theology was a lot more interestring to me than say Basildean...with the allusions of abraxis and "cosmic sperm" creating Christ....
       
       

      --Ben


       
      --
      By working the soil we cultivate good manners
      Is to say "please" and "thank you"
      Especially for the things you never had
      ...
      And always say "thank you"
      Especially for broccoli

      Jhonn Balance
      16 Feb 1962 - 13 Nov 2004

    • Tsharpmin7@aol.com
      hello AA.... maybe these particular Wiccan and New Age teachers you speak of need to develop the capacity to recognize those empty containers (I think of
      Message 99 of 99 , Jan 27, 2006
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        hello AA....   maybe these particular Wiccan and New
        Age teachers you speak of need to develop the capacity
        to recognize those "empty containers" (I think of the
        type of approach you described more as entertainment
        and identity seeking) and turn them away at the door
        before they waste everbody else's time and energy....
        unless, of course, as part of the teaching, these
        mystical tourists are being made examples of.  some
        transformative traditions have this technique down to
        a virtual art form.  its not as cruel or cold as it sounds
        when to do so serves a higher purpose.  which is not
        to say that the individual, whether they are turned
        away or made an example of, does not benefit at
        some level.
         
        Your friend,
         
        Crispin Sainte III
         
         
        In a message dated 1/26/2006 5:34:03 PM Central Standard Time, koalaKards@... writes:
        Hi,
         
         
        I don't know if this is Homer or Crispin's quote:
         
        "but imitating hand-me-down transformative traditions
        in hopes of duplicating their highest accomplishments
        is pretty silly, yet it is the most common thing in the
        world and few ever think twice about it.  this may be a
        bit of a cliche, but it really does boil down to container
        and content; surface and depth.  so if you can
        recognize those who rely on the container; those who
        appear to you to be empty vessels, you're way ahead
        of the game.  and I believe you are!"
         
        I'm seeing this in Wiccan/New Age Community. Lots of wannabees they see Charmed and they look for people in the craft to teach "all that they know" then they consider themselves to be a High Priest/tess or in even New Age circles, Reiki Mastership in a weekend, or people calling themselves shaman after taking a single class just to say they are. I consider them to be "empty vessels". AA
         
         


        Tsharpmin7@... wrote:
        hey Homer... you seem to have developed a pretty
        mature and perceptive outlook regarding these
        matters in a very short time.  you're going to spare
        yourself a lot of wasted energy.
         
        some people approach traditional systems like Fred
        and Barney in the Flintstones cartoons approach the
        Buffalo Lodge: for its entertainment and social benefit. 
        The secret handshakes are fun and its good to make
        friends with a common interest and slip away from
        the mundane and routine.  and there is nothing at
        all wrong with that as long you're not mistaking it for
        something higher.
         
        but imitating hand-me-down transformative traditions
        in hopes of duplicating their highest accomplishments
        is pretty silly, yet it is the most common thing in the
        world and few ever think twice about it.  this may be a
        bit of a cliche, but it really does boil down to container
        and content; surface and depth.  so if you can
        recognize those who rely on the container; those who
        appear to you to be empty vessels, you're way ahead
        of the game.  and I believe you are!
         
        the use of specialized language, myth and allegory
        may serve a very specific purpose when employed by
        those who have already arrived where I think you wish
        to someday arrive, Homer.  i think you'll understand
        the way and why of it as you continue to study the
        ancient Gnostics.  and i do agree with you in the sense
        that if there were a live and functioning Gnosticism
        today -- and i can't say for sure there isn't -- i imagine
        their use of metaphor and allegory would draw from
        more contemporary sources than those employed by
        the ancients; that those dusty old paradigms would
        have long since been discarded as barriers to learning
        in favor of something much more accessible and
        immediate.  to foment confusion, even if it's
        inadvertant, should be a very trustworthy indication to
        us that IT'S NOT HERE!
         
        as you so wisely suggest, Homer, mystery for the sake
        of mystery is just plain vanity and gamesmanship.
        they are what they are, not what they could be.
         
        Your friend,
         
        Crispin Sainte III
         
        In a message dated 1/26/2006 2:03:26 PM Central Standard Time, shaftpopper@... writes:
        Dear Crispin,
         
        This makes good sense to me. From what I've seen I think there is a lot of copying without understanding if what they're copying is even needed anymore. Its the same with some of the language and the myths and allegories. If I really want somebody to understand me or learn something I can teach I would try to make it as plain as I could. But I think some people like to be mysterious because it makes them feel special, and I think that just encourages the false self or our vanity. I feel like that's the wrong direction to go if you are trying to find something like what the original Gnostics were searching for. I like how in the Gnostic Gospels the Gnostics wouldn't waste their lives to be martyrs if they could help it. What a shame and a waste it would have been if they copied the orthodox Christians who thought that copying the Jesus myth would automatic get them in heaven. I think the Gnostics knew God would have to be insane to want something so cruel.
         
        Homer
         
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