Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Balasan: [Gnosticism2] Digest Number 1002

Expand Messages
  • abdul wahab
    More than anyone else, Valentinus made it possible for gnostic Christians to remain part of the larger church as long as they did.Still, secrecy was an
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 29, 2005
      More than anyone else,
      Valentinus made it possible for gnostic Christians to remain part of the
      larger church as long as they did.Still, secrecy was an important hallmark
      of Valentinian gnosticism.  Valentinus' followers met separately from
      the rest of the church for instruction [emphases added]. 
      >
      >
      >
      Gerry,
      Secrecy is not only the hallmark for valentinian gnosticism. It prevails also in Judo-Christian and muslim gnosticism. But, it does not prevail to the hindic and hellenistic gnosticism, rather it becomes an integrated part of respective two 

      gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com menulis:
      ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
      Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing
      http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/BYrrlB/TM
      --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

      There are 3 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Valentinian Christians
      From: "Gerry"
      2. Re: Valentinian Christians
      From: m_l_crassus
      3. Re: Valentinian Christians
      From: Bob Hope


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:21:57 -0000
      From: "Gerry"
      Subject: Valentinian Christians

      It's finally time for me to ask a question that I've been pondering for a few months now, but until recently, I hadn't been able to locate the quote from a particular source that had left me scratching my head. Let me start with a little background on my query by mentioning a new book that I've been enjoying recently. I've long had a soft spot for the writing and translations of Marvin Meyer, and since we have dealt with the subject of Gnostic writings here as depicted in the popular culture, I figured I would find his new release, THE GNOSTIC DISCOVERIES: The Impact of the Nag Hammadi Library, both enjoyable and informative. In one of the sections outlining various schools of Gnostic thought, the author offers this description:The gnostic system of Valentinus and the Valentinians resembles the Sethian school of thought to a considerable extent, but Valentinian thought has its own distinctive features. Valentinian gnosis is specifically Christian, and Valentinian Christians were thoroughly involved in the life of the church. Very likely they did not refer to themselves as Valentinians, but rather as devoted Christians…. Typically, Valentinian Christians seem to have attended worship services with other Christians, read the Christian scriptures, and participated in the sacraments. Valentinian scholars studied the writings of the apostles John and Paul, and they produced their own letters, commentaries, sermons, and other learned and pious Christian works…. Valentinians also convened their own meetings in addition to the services of the churches they attended [emphasis added], and at their meetings they carried their Christian thought and practice beyond those of the great church to a deeper knowledge and a more mystical form of piety. (page 117–118)I suppose this is very similar to the understanding I had gleaned over the years from reading other sources on the subject. In my mind, a Valentinian congregation would have consisted of psychics and pneumatics, both attending basic services together, while the latter also met privately for the more esoteric functions. Although the following summary begins similarly to Meyer's, the second paragraph seemed to be at odds with the notion of joint fellowship:A unique aspect of Valentinus's teaching is that he held out hope that ordinary Christians might attain to some kind of gnosis, or secret knowledge. So when he taught, he used those Scriptures that were accepted by the orthodox Christians as authentic. He recognized and offered the same sacraments as the larger Christian community. And as we've seen, he continued to be involved in the leadership of the churches. More than anyone else, Valentinus made it possible for gnostic Christians to remain part of the larger church as long as they did.Still, secrecy was an important hallmark of Valentinian gnosticism. Valentinus' followers met separately from the rest of the church for instruction [emphases added]. This state of affairs was certainly uncomfortable for orthodox Christians. It took centuries to completely root out all of the Valentinian gnostics in the church. (J. Michael Matkin, The Complete Idiot's Guide to The Gnostic Gospels, page 42)I guess I initially inferred from Matkin's comments that he was describing two separate services: one for pistics, and one for Gnostics. Now that I've found the quote again, I'm not sure that he's not simply pointing out the need for the pneumatics to meet privately for the more specialized "instruction" involved in their own initiatory rites—not necessarily precluding them from also sitting alongside psychics during regular services.If anyone else had some thoughts on the composition of Valentinian congregations, I'd be quite interested in other references you might provide.Gerry


      [This message contained attachments]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 2
      Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 07:56:23 -0000
      From: m_l_crassus
      Subject: Re: Valentinian Christians

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" wrote:
      >
      > It's finally time for me to ask a question that I've been pondering
      for a few months now, but until recently, I hadn't been able to locate
      the quote from a particular source that had left me scratching my
      head. Let me start with a little background on my query by mentioning
      a new book that I've been enjoying recently. I've long had a soft
      spot for the writing and translations of Marvin Meyer, and since we
      have dealt with the subject of Gnostic writings here as depicted in
      the popular culture, I figured I would find his new release, THE
      GNOSTIC DISCOVERIES: The Impact of the Nag Hammadi Library, both
      enjoyable and informative. In one of the sections outlining various
      schools of Gnostic thought, the author offers this description:The
      gnostic system of Valentinus and the Valentinians resembles the
      Sethian school of thought to a considerable extent, but Valentinian
      thought has its own distinctive features. Valentinian gnosis is
      specifically Christian, and Valentinian Christians were thoroughly
      involved in the life of the church. Very likely they did not refer to
      themselves as Valentinians, but rather as devoted Christians….
      Typically, Valentinian Christians seem to have attended worship
      services with other Christians, read the Christian scriptures, and
      participated in the sacraments. Valentinian scholars studied the
      writings of the apostles John and Paul, and they produced their own
      letters, commentaries, sermons, and other learned and pious Christian
      works…. Valentinians also convened their own meetings in addition to
      the services of the churches they attended [emphasis added], and at
      their meetings they carried their Christian thought and practice
      beyond those of the great church to a deeper knowledge and a more
      mystical form of piety. (page 117–118)I suppose this is very similar
      to the understanding I had gleaned over the years from reading other
      sources on the subject. In my mind, a Valentinian congregation would
      have consisted of psychics and pneumatics, both attending basic
      services together, while the latter also met privately for the more
      esoteric functions. Although the following summary begins similarly
      to Meyer's, the second paragraph seemed to be at odds with the notion
      of joint fellowship:A unique aspect of Valentinus's teaching is that
      he held out hope that ordinary Christians might attain to some kind of
      gnosis, or secret knowledge. So when he taught, he used those
      Scriptures that were accepted by the orthodox Christians as authentic.
      He recognized and offered the same sacraments as the larger Christian
      community. And as we've seen, he continued to be involved in the
      leadership of the churches. More than anyone else, Valentinus made it
      possible for gnostic Christians to remain part of the larger church as
      long as they did.Still, secrecy was an important hallmark of
      Valentinian gnosticism. Valentinus' followers met separately from the
      rest of the church for instruction [emphases added]. This state of
      affairs was certainly uncomfortable for orthodox Christians. It took
      centuries to completely root out all of the Valentinian gnostics in
      the church. (J. Michael Matkin, The Complete Idiot's Guide to The
      Gnostic Gospels, page 42)I guess I initially inferred from Matkin's
      comments that he was describing two separate services: one for
      pistics, and one for Gnostics. Now that I've found the quote again,
      I'm not sure that he's not simply pointing out the need for the
      pneumatics to meet privately for the more specialized "instruction"
      involved in their own initiatory rites—not necessarily precluding them
      from also sitting alongside psychics during regular services.If anyone
      else had some thoughts on the composition of Valentinian
      congregations, I'd be quite interested in other references you might
      provide.Gerry
      >
      This is about as good as I can provide you:
      Valentinus and the Valentinian Tradition
      http://www.gnosis.org/library/valentinus/index.html








      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 07:28:40 -0800 (PST)
      From: Bob Hope
      Subject: Re: Valentinian Christians

      Gerry,

      I don't have any references with regards to the
      make-up on congregations, but I do have a "take" on
      these quotes.

      It almost sounds like Valentius had a relationship
      with his "group" much like Jesus had with the
      apostles, but had a "select few" like Jesus had Mary
      Magdelene, that he taught the real mysteries to.

      This also sounds like a good way to conceal themselves
      from the "regular" church.

      Bob

      --- Gerry wrote:

      > It's finally time for me to ask a question that
      > I've been pondering for a few months now, but until
      > recently, I hadn't been able to locate the quote
      > from a particular source that had left me scratching
      > my head. Let me start with a little background on
      > my query by mentioning a new book that I've been
      > enjoying recently. I've long had a soft spot for
      > the writing and translations of Marvin Meyer, and
      > since we have dealt with the subject of Gnostic
      > writings here as depicted in the popular culture, I
      > figured I would find his new release, THE GNOSTIC
      > DISCOVERIES: The Impact of the Nag Hammadi Library,
      > both enjoyable and informative. In one of the
      > sections outlining various schools of Gnostic
      > thought, the author offers this description:The
      > gnostic system of Valentinus and the Valentinians
      > resembles the Sethian school of thought to a
      > considerable extent, but Valentinian thought has its
      > own distinctive features. Valentinian gnosis is
      > specifically Christian, and Valentinian Christians
      > were thoroughly involved in the life of the church.
      > Very likely they did not refer to themselves as
      > Valentinians, but rather as devoted Christians….
      > Typically, Valentinian Christians seem to have
      > attended worship services with other Christians,
      > read the Christian scriptures, and participated in
      > the sacraments. Valentinian scholars studied the
      > writings of the apostles John and Paul, and they
      > produced their own letters, commentaries, sermons,
      > and other learned and pious Christian works….
      > Valentinians also convened their own meetings in
      > addition to the services of the churches they
      > attended [emphasis added], and at their meetings
      > they carried their Christian thought and practice
      > beyond those of the great church to a deeper
      > knowledge and a more mystical form of piety. (page
      > 117–118)I suppose this is very similar to the
      > understanding I had gleaned over the years from
      > reading other sources on the subject. In my mind, a
      > Valentinian congregation would have consisted of
      > psychics and pneumatics, both attending basic
      > services together, while the latter also met
      > privately for the more esoteric functions. Although
      > the following summary begins similarly to Meyer's,
      > the second paragraph seemed to be at odds with the
      > notion of joint fellowship:A unique aspect of
      > Valentinus's teaching is that he held out hope that
      > ordinary Christians might attain to some kind of
      > gnosis, or secret knowledge. So when he taught, he
      > used those Scriptures that were accepted by the
      > orthodox Christians as authentic. He recognized and
      > offered the same sacraments as the larger Christian
      > community. And as we've seen, he continued to be
      > involved in the leadership of the churches. More
      > than anyone else, Valentinus made it possible for
      > gnostic Christians to remain part of the larger
      > church as long as they did.Still, secrecy was an
      > important hallmark of Valentinian gnosticism.
      > Valentinus' followers met separately from the rest
      > of the church for instruction [emphases added].
      > This state of affairs was certainly uncomfortable
      > for orthodox Christians. It took centuries to
      > completely root out all of the Valentinian gnostics
      > in the church. (J. Michael Matkin, The Complete
      > Idiot's Guide to The Gnostic Gospels, page 42)I
      > guess I initially inferred from Matkin's comments
      > that he was describing two separate services: one
      > for pistics, and one for Gnostics. Now that I've
      > found the quote again, I'm not sure that he's not
      > simply pointing out the need for the pneumatics to
      > meet privately for the more specialized
      > "instruction" involved in their own initiatory
      > rites—not necessarily precluding them from also
      > sitting alongside psychics during regular
      > services.If anyone else had some thoughts on the
      > composition of Valentinian congregations, I'd be
      > quite interested in other references you might
      > provide.Gerry
      >




      __________________________________________
      Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
      Just $16.99/mo. or less.
      dsl.yahoo.com





      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________



      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links

      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/

      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------




      __________________________________________________
      Apakah Anda Yahoo!?
      Lelah menerima spam? Surat Yahoo! memiliki perlindungan terbaik terhadap spam
      http://id.mail.yahoo.com

    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.