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  • janahooks
    ... Dear Santa, I would like to see a comparison of all the different gnostic sects with glossaries, maps, charts of the emanations per sect, and a shiny
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 9, 2005
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:

      >
      > If there is one particular subject that you feel is lacking in books
      > on the subject of historical Gnosticism; what is it? There are many
      > books out on the subject now. Is there anything that you feel just
      > doesn't get explained, or get enough attention?

      Dear Santa,

           I would like to see a comparison of all the different gnostic sects with glossaries, maps, charts of the emanations per sect, and a shiny fold-out timeline.  If this already exists, do tell.  If not, I guess I wouldn't mind a pony. 

      Sincerely,

      jana

       

    • Mike Leavitt
      Hello janahooks ... And do it with original texts. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove - s
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 9, 2005
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        Hello janahooks

        On 12/09/05, you wrote:

        >
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >>
        >> If there is one particular subject that you feel is lacking in
        >> books
        >> on the subject of historical Gnosticism; what is it? There are
        >> many
        >> books out on the subject now. Is there anything that you feel just
        >> doesn't get explained, or get enough attention?
        >
        >
        > Dear Santa,
        >
        > I would like to see a comparison of all the different gnostic
        > sects with glossaries, maps, charts of the emanations per sect, and
        > a shiny fold-out timeline. If this already exists, do tell. If not,
        > I guess I wouldn't mind a pony.
        >
        > Sincerely,
        >
        > jana

        And do it with original texts.

        Regards
        --
        Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
      • pmcvflag
        ... I would like to see a comparison of all the different gnostic sects with glossaries, maps, charts of the emanations per sect, and a shiny fold-out
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 10, 2005
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          >>>>Dear Santa,

          I would like to see a comparison of all the different gnostic
          sects with glossaries, maps, charts of the emanations per sect, and a
          shiny fold-out timeline. If this already exists, do tell. If not, I
          guess I wouldn't mind a pony.

          Sincerely,

          jana<<<<

          Oh my, well... Santa's helper has been working on exactly that for a
          couple years now, but I don't think he will have it done by THIS
          holiday. Perhaps the pony is a bit easier.
        • pmcvflag
          ... WOW... I think we better examine whether you were THAT good of a boy, Mike!!!! ;) Well, I guess we should be proud that we have such a demanding group of
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 10, 2005
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            >>And do it with original texts.<<<

            WOW... I think we better examine whether you were THAT good of a
            boy, Mike!!!! ;) Well, I guess we should be proud that we have such
            a demanding group of people.

            So, uhm... how about anything you guys can think of for the more
            immediate function I had in mind; some subject that doesn't get
            talked about which we can work on in here?

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello janahooks
            >
            > On 12/09/05, you wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
            wrote:
            > >>
            > >> If there is one particular subject that you feel is lacking in
            > >> books
            > >> on the subject of historical Gnosticism; what is it? There are
            > >> many
            > >> books out on the subject now. Is there anything that you feel
            just
            > >> doesn't get explained, or get enough attention?
            > >
            > >
            > > Dear Santa,
            > >
            > > I would like to see a comparison of all the different gnostic
            > > sects with glossaries, maps, charts of the emanations per sect,
            and
            > > a shiny fold-out timeline. If this already exists, do tell. If
            not,
            > > I guess I wouldn't mind a pony.
            > >
            > > Sincerely,
            > >
            > > jana
            >
            > And do it with original texts.
            >
            > Regards
            > --
            > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
            >
          • Mike Leavitt
            Hello pmcvflag ... How about a discussion of the eternal now in a Gnotic context, I m reading On The Origins of the World, set in the past, yet it seems it
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 10, 2005
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              Hello pmcvflag

              On 12/10/05, you wrote:

              >>> And do it with original texts.<<<
              >
              > WOW... I think we better examine whether you were THAT good of a
              > boy, Mike!!!! ;) Well, I guess we should be proud that we have such
              > a demanding group of people.
              >
              > So, uhm... how about anything you guys can think of for the more
              > immediate function I had in mind; some subject that doesn't get
              > talked about which we can work on in here?
              >
              > PMCV

              How about a discussion of the eternal "now" in a Gnotic context, I'm
              reading On The Origins of the World, set in the past, yet it seems it
              is all happening now as I read it. I react this way to a lot of the
              Gnostic scriptures.

              Regards
              --
              Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
            • lady_caritas
              ... such ... it ... Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about your reactions of the eternal now derived from reading Gnostic
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 12, 2005
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello pmcvflag
                >
                > On 12/10/05, you wrote:
                >
                > >>> And do it with original texts.<<<
                > >
                > > WOW... I think we better examine whether you were THAT good of a
                > > boy, Mike!!!! ;) Well, I guess we should be proud that we have
                such
                > > a demanding group of people.
                > >
                > > So, uhm... how about anything you guys can think of for the more
                > > immediate function I had in mind; some subject that doesn't get
                > > talked about which we can work on in here?
                > >
                > > PMCV
                >
                > How about a discussion of the eternal "now" in a Gnotic context, I'm
                > reading On The Origins of the World, set in the past, yet it seems
                it
                > is all happening now as I read it. I react this way to a lot of the
                > Gnostic scriptures.
                >
                > Regards
                > --
                > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                >


                Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about your
                reactions of the "eternal now" derived from reading Gnostic
                scriptures? :-)

                Cari
              • janahooks
                Mike & Lady C., ... Wait for the slow one to catch up...what s the eternal now ? Is this something I can look up, or is the term a Mike-ism? :) jana
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                  Mike & Lady C.,

                  > Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about your
                  > reactions of the "eternal now" derived from reading Gnostic
                  > scriptures? :-)

                  Wait for the slow one to catch up...what's the "eternal now"? Is this
                  something I can look up, or is the term a Mike-ism? :)

                  jana
                • Mike Leavitt
                  Hello lady_caritas ... It is a general reaction, sometimes the creation myths seem in the distant past, but sometimes they seem like they are going on now, in
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                    Hello lady_caritas

                    On 12/13/05, you wrote:

                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Hello pmcvflag
                    >>
                    >> On 12/10/05, you wrote:
                    >>
                    >>>>> And do it with original texts.<<<
                    >>>
                    >>> WOW... I think we better examine whether you were THAT good of a
                    >>> boy, Mike!!!! ;) Well, I guess we should be proud that we have
                    > such
                    >> > a demanding group of people.
                    >> >
                    >> > So, uhm... how about anything you guys can think of for the more
                    >> > immediate function I had in mind; some subject that doesn't get
                    >> > talked about which we can work on in here?
                    >> >
                    >> > PMCV
                    >>
                    >> How about a discussion of the eternal "now" in a Gnotic context,
                    >> I'm reading On The Origins of the World, set in the past, yet it
                    >> seems
                    > it
                    >> is all happening now as I read it. I react this way to a lot of the
                    >> Gnostic scriptures.
                    >>
                    >> Regards
                    >> --
                    >> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about your
                    > reactions of the "eternal now" derived from reading Gnostic
                    > scriptures? :-)
                    >
                    > Cari

                    It is a general reaction, sometimes the creation myths seem in the
                    distant past, but sometimes they seem like they are going on now, in
                    me., or outside of time altogether. There is an impact of immedacy,
                    especially in On The Creation of the World.

                    Regards
                    --
                    Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                  • Mike Leavitt
                    Hello janahooks ... It is a philosophical term, and you should be able to look it up, simply it is the idea that the only reality is now, and that the past and
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                      Hello janahooks

                      On 12/13/05, you wrote:

                      > Mike & Lady C.,
                      >
                      >> Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about your
                      >> reactions of the "eternal now" derived from reading Gnostic
                      >> scriptures? :-)
                      >
                      > Wait for the slow one to catch up...what's the "eternal now"? Is
                      > this something I can look up, or is the term a Mike-ism? :)
                      >
                      > jana

                      It is a philosophical term, and you should be able to look it up,
                      simply it is the idea that the only reality is now, and that the past
                      and future really do not exist as such, only as concepts. I hope I
                      got that right.

                      Regards
                      --
                      Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                    • lady_caritas
                      ... your ... past ... Hi, Mike, jana... The Neoplatonist Plotinus used this concept. The eternal now transcends the temporal world of change, if I remember
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello janahooks
                        >
                        > On 12/13/05, you wrote:
                        >
                        > > Mike & Lady C.,
                        > >
                        > >> Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about
                        your
                        > >> reactions of the "eternal now" derived from reading Gnostic
                        > >> scriptures? :-)
                        > >
                        > > Wait for the slow one to catch up...what's the "eternal now"? Is
                        > > this something I can look up, or is the term a Mike-ism? :)
                        > >
                        > > jana
                        >
                        > It is a philosophical term, and you should be able to look it up,
                        > simply it is the idea that the only reality is now, and that the
                        past
                        > and future really do not exist as such, only as concepts. I hope I
                        > got that right.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        > --
                        > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                        >

                        Hi, Mike, jana... The Neoplatonist Plotinus used this concept.
                        The "eternal now" transcends the temporal world of change, if I
                        remember correctly.

                        Cari
                      • lady_caritas
                        ... more ... get ... the ... your ... That s interesting, Mike. Mythology can be powerful. I m curious; do you experience this as an observer or do you
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello lady_caritas
                          >
                          > On 12/13/05, you wrote:
                          >
                          > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
                          wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> Hello pmcvflag
                          > >>
                          > >> On 12/10/05, you wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>>>> And do it with original texts.<<<
                          > >>>
                          > >>> WOW... I think we better examine whether you were THAT good of a
                          > >>> boy, Mike!!!! ;) Well, I guess we should be proud that we have
                          > > such
                          > >> > a demanding group of people.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > So, uhm... how about anything you guys can think of for the
                          more
                          > >> > immediate function I had in mind; some subject that doesn't
                          get
                          > >> > talked about which we can work on in here?
                          > >> >
                          > >> > PMCV
                          > >>
                          > >> How about a discussion of the eternal "now" in a Gnotic context,
                          > >> I'm reading On The Origins of the World, set in the past, yet it
                          > >> seems
                          > > it
                          > >> is all happening now as I read it. I react this way to a lot of
                          the
                          > >> Gnostic scriptures.
                          > >>
                          > >> Regards
                          > >> --
                          > >> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about
                          your
                          > > reactions of the "eternal now" derived from reading Gnostic
                          > > scriptures? :-)
                          > >
                          > > Cari
                          >
                          > It is a general reaction, sometimes the creation myths seem in the
                          > distant past, but sometimes they seem like they are going on now, in
                          > me., or outside of time altogether. There is an impact of immedacy,
                          > especially in On The Creation of the World.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > --
                          > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                          >

                          That's interesting, Mike. Mythology can be powerful. I'm curious;
                          do you experience this as an observer or do you identify with any
                          characters of the myth?

                          Cari
                        • deby estephan
                          question please: where do I get a copy of what you are reading from so I too can be included in the group discussions please....thank you, Deby ... more ...
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                            question please: where do I get a copy of what you are reading from so I too can be included in the group discussions please....thank you, Deby

                            lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello lady_caritas
                            >
                            > On 12/13/05, you wrote:
                            >
                            > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
                            wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> Hello pmcvflag
                            > >>
                            > >> On 12/10/05, you wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>>>> And do it with original texts.<<<
                            > >>>
                            > >>> WOW... I think we better examine whether you were THAT good of a
                            > >>> boy, Mike!!!! ;) Well, I guess we should be proud that we have
                            > > such
                            > >> > a demanding group of people.
                            > >> >
                            > >> > So, uhm... how about anything you guys can think of for the
                            more
                            > >> > immediate function I had in mind; some subject that doesn't
                            get
                            > >> > talked about which we can work on in here?
                            > >> >
                            > >> > PMCV
                            > >>
                            > >> How about a discussion of the eternal "now" in a Gnotic context,
                            > >> I'm reading On The Origins of the World, set in the past, yet it
                            > >> seems
                            > > it
                            > >> is all happening now as I read it. I react this way to a lot of
                            the
                            > >> Gnostic scriptures.
                            > >>
                            > >> Regards
                            > >> --
                            > >> Mike Leavitt  ac998_@_lafn._org  remove -'s
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Lead on, Mike. So, what thoughts would you like to share about
                            your
                            > > reactions of the "eternal now" derived from reading Gnostic
                            > > scriptures? :-)
                            > >
                            > > Cari
                            >
                            > It is a general reaction, sometimes the creation myths seem in the
                            > distant past, but sometimes they seem like they are going on now, in
                            > me., or outside of time altogether.  There is an impact of immedacy,
                            > especially in On The Creation of the World.
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > --
                            > Mike Leavitt  ac998_@_lafn._org  remove -'s
                            >

                            That's interesting, Mike.  Mythology can be powerful.  I'm curious;
                            do you experience this as an observer or do you identify with any
                            characters of the myth?

                            Cari






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                          • lady_caritas
                            ... so I too can be included in the group discussions please....thank you, Deby ... Hello, Deby. You can find On the Origin of the World and other Gnostic
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, deby estephan <nicudle2002@y...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > question please: where do I get a copy of what you are reading from
                              so I too can be included in the group discussions please....thank
                              you, Deby
                              >


                              Hello, Deby. You can find "On the Origin of the World" and other
                              Gnostic scriptures at gnosis.org ~
                              http://gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

                              Also, a couple books of Gnostic text selections that include this
                              work are _The Nag Hammadi Library_, edited by James M. Robinson, and
                              _The Gnostic Bible_, edited by Barnstone and Meyer.

                              Feel free to jump in conversation anytime, Deby.

                              Cari
                            • Mike Leavitt
                              Hello lady_caritas ... It varries, sometimes the sophia character, sometimes the narrator, sometimes just as an observer. I did identify with the archon
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                                Hello lady_caritas

                                On 12/13/05, you wrote:

                                >> It is a general reaction, sometimes the creation myths seem in the
                                >> distant past, but sometimes they seem like they are going on now,
                                >> in me., or outside of time altogether. There is an impact of
                                >> immedacy, especially in On The Creation of the World.
                                >>
                                >> Regards
                                >> --
                                >> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                                >>
                                >
                                > That's interesting, Mike. Mythology can be powerful. I'm curious;
                                > do you experience this as an observer or do you identify with any
                                > characters of the myth?
                                >
                                > Cari

                                It varries, sometimes the sophia character, sometimes the narrator,
                                sometimes just as an observer. I did identify with the archon
                                Saboath as he was beatified for seeing through his father, but that
                                happened years ago too when I read the Hypostasis of the Archons in
                                NHL.

                                Regards
                                --
                                Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                              • Mike Leavitt
                                Hello deby ... THE GNOSTIC BIBLE Barnstone and Myer/Shamballa is the publisher. A very heavy book in more than one sense of the term. Regards -- Mike Leavitt
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 13, 2005
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                                  Hello deby

                                  On 12/14/05, you wrote:

                                  > question please: where do I get a copy of what you are reading from
                                  > so I too can be included in the group discussions please....thank
                                  > you, Deby

                                  THE GNOSTIC BIBLE Barnstone and Myer/Shamballa is the publisher. A
                                  very heavy book in more than one sense of the term.

                                  Regards
                                  --
                                  Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                                • pmcvflag
                                  Hey all This is a GREAT idea for discussion. I wish I could post more, but this is my last day before my big trip. I just wanted to throw a little fuel in the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                    Hey all

                                    This is a GREAT idea for discussion. I wish I could post more, but
                                    this is my last day before my big trip. I just wanted to throw a
                                    little fuel in the tank before I go.

                                    I find this intersting in the Gospel of Truth. When it talks about
                                    the "Error" and how it disolves into "Truth", sometimes it seems to
                                    talk about it as something that will happen, other times as
                                    something that already happened. There seems to be an ambiguity
                                    between past, present, and future.

                                    One could wonder if this is a glitch in the translation, but one
                                    could also see this as part of a general perception that the
                                    cosmology, soteriology, and eschatology are all one thing to some
                                    extent, and they repeat each time an individual comes to understand
                                    them. When does the Christ rise? When the psychic is initiated into
                                    pneumaticism. When does the error fade? When the Gnostic sees the
                                    light of the Father. When does the Kingdom of the Father
                                    come? ....... It is before us but man does not see it.

                                    Happened, happening, will happen; in the light of an initiatory
                                    process the destinction between these tenses may not always be
                                    clear... or even important beyond what they mean to the process
                                    itself.

                                    Maybe you all can think of other specific examples in the texts

                                    Ok, that is probably my last post for awhile, so you all take care
                                    and have a great holiday season!!! Keep the conversation alive :)

                                    PMCV

                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello lady_caritas
                                    >
                                    > On 12/13/05, you wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >> It is a general reaction, sometimes the creation myths seem in
                                    the
                                    > >> distant past, but sometimes they seem like they are going on
                                    now,
                                    > >> in me., or outside of time altogether. There is an impact of
                                    > >> immedacy, especially in On The Creation of the World.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Regards
                                    > >> --
                                    > >> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > > That's interesting, Mike. Mythology can be powerful. I'm
                                    curious;
                                    > > do you experience this as an observer or do you identify with
                                    any
                                    > > characters of the myth?
                                    > >
                                    > > Cari
                                    >
                                    > It varries, sometimes the sophia character, sometimes the narrator,
                                    > sometimes just as an observer. I did identify with the archon
                                    > Saboath as he was beatified for seeing through his father, but that
                                    > happened years ago too when I read the Hypostasis of the Archons in
                                    > NHL.
                                    >
                                    > Regards
                                    > --
                                    > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                                    >
                                  • Mike Leavitt
                                    Hello pmcvflag See below. ... Pedantic point, it is origin not creation in the title in the Gnostic Bible. Time is ancy anyway, in eternity it does not exist.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                      Hello pmcvflag

                                      See below.

                                      On 12/16/05, you wrote:

                                      > Hey all
                                      >
                                      > This is a GREAT idea for discussion. I wish I could post more, but
                                      > this is my last day before my big trip. I just wanted to throw a
                                      > little fuel in the tank before I go.
                                      >
                                      > I find this intersting in the Gospel of Truth. When it talks about
                                      > the "Error" and how it disolves into "Truth", sometimes it seems to
                                      > talk about it as something that will happen, other times as
                                      > something that already happened. There seems to be an ambiguity
                                      > between past, present, and future.
                                      >
                                      > One could wonder if this is a glitch in the translation, but one
                                      > could also see this as part of a general perception that the
                                      > cosmology, soteriology, and eschatology are all one thing to some
                                      > extent, and they repeat each time an individual comes to understand
                                      > them. When does the Christ rise? When the psychic is initiated into
                                      > pneumaticism. When does the error fade? When the Gnostic sees the
                                      > light of the Father. When does the Kingdom of the Father
                                      > come? ....... It is before us but man does not see it.
                                      >
                                      > Happened, happening, will happen; in the light of an initiatory
                                      > process the destinction between these tenses may not always be
                                      > clear... or even important beyond what they mean to the process
                                      > itself.
                                      >
                                      > Maybe you all can think of other specific examples in the texts
                                      >
                                      > Ok, that is probably my last post for awhile, so you all take care
                                      > and have a great holiday season!!! Keep the conversation alive :)
                                      >
                                      > PMCV
                                      >
                                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> Hello lady_caritas
                                      >>
                                      >> On 12/13/05, you wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>>> It is a general reaction, sometimes the creation myths seem in
                                      > the
                                      >>>> distant past, but sometimes they seem like they are going on
                                      > now,
                                      >>>> in me., or outside of time altogether. There is an impact of
                                      >>>> immedacy, especially in On The Creation of the World.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Regards
                                      >>>> --
                                      >>>> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                                      >>>>

                                      Pedantic point, it is origin not creation in the title in the Gnostic
                                      Bible. Time is ancy anyway, in eternity it does not exist.

                                      >>>
                                      >>> That's interesting, Mike. Mythology can be powerful. I'm
                                      > curious;
                                      >>> do you experience this as an observer or do you identify with
                                      > any
                                      >>> characters of the myth?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Cari
                                      >>
                                      >> It varries, sometimes the sophia character, sometimes the narrator,
                                      >> sometimes just as an observer. I did identify with the archon
                                      >> Saboath as he was beatified for seeing through his father, but that
                                      >> happened years ago too when I read the Hypostasis of the Archons in
                                      >> NHL.
                                      >>
                                      >> Regards
                                      >> --
                                      >> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                                      >>
                                      >
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                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                      > --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the
                                      > disfigured and poor with hope and healing
                                      > http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/BYrrlB/TM
                                      >
                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
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                                      Regards
                                      --
                                      Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
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