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Balasan: [Gnosticism2] Digest Number 977

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  • abdul wahab
    From various comments and writings, there is one point that the members of this group want to grasp, that is God, or the true path towards God. By the nature,
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 9, 2005
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      From various comments and writings, there is one point that the members of this group want to grasp, that is God, or the true path towards God. By the nature, gnosticisim, whatever the religious and phylosophical thougths it be as the milestone, it is concluded that God must be felf/experienced in personal bhakti (worship). The conclusion from various religious practices of esoterism came to the same point, personal and direct contact with the Supreme Being, a thing or state one perceives as God. But they find difficulties to express their experiences through human languanges. That's why they use the languange and concept that have been used to describe religious doctrine used before.  

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      There are 8 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. another newbie
      From: "Patricia"
      2. Greetings!
      From: "john_tomlinson2"
      3. Re: another newbie
      From: Hoomer
      4. Re: gnosticism and the end of time
      From: "Ben"
      5. Re: Greetings!
      From: pmcvflag
      6. Re: another newbie
      From: pmcvflag
      7. Re: another newbie
      From: pmcvflag
      8. Re: another newbie
      From: pmcvflag


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      Message: 1
      Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:47:50 -0000
      From: "Patricia"
      Subject: another newbie

      Hello to all,
      I'm Trisha, 43, and just the other day I discovered Gnosticism. I was
      not raised in a religious environment, came to mainstream Christianity
      in my 30's and dabbled therein for the next 10 years or so. I finally
      got tired of trying to squeeze myself in the mold of MC (mainstream
      Christianity) and was about to give up when, lo and behold!, an
      internet research session led me onto the path of Gnosticism. It may
      sound a bit crazy, but I feel as if I'm finally coming home. I've been
      doing a lot of reading at the Gnosis.org site, opening my mind, having
      my horizons broadened and it feels so GOOOOOOD!!! I joined this site
      in the hope of learning from others. Thanks, and if anybody has
      questions about, well, anything, feel free to ask.
      Thanks again!

      Trisha








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      Message: 2
      Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:21:09 -0000
      From: "john_tomlinson2"
      Subject: Greetings!

      Hi

      I'm a Gnostic and I'm looking forward to interacting with everyone.

      Light to all of you.

      John T









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      Message: 3
      Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:07:44 -0500
      From: Hoomer
      Subject: Re: another newbie

      Hello....newbie here as well...
      Ben...31...
      I was brought up in england around the town of Glastonbury ( a significant
      place for Gnostics....)Though I attended CHurch of ENgland schools...I never
      felt at home. I eventually went a bit new age....which lead to "paganism".
      Whereupon I practised a form of magic.
      I then "recently" met a wonderful woman...who just happens to be a
      manichean essene/carmelite/coptic christian0 (http://essenes.net/ ). So as I
      consider myself a "grail seeker" first and foremost...I have no trouble
      embracing Gnostcism and her spirituality...relaly it feels like a logical
      growth from what I was doing already....
      I joined this site as a "friend" of the AGCA (
      http://gnostic-church.org/)...and am currently considering joining
      "properly"....
      My interest center around kabbalah, the grail and Gnosticism in general.
      I have recently begun a Gnostic scriptures "book reading" group...
      and invite anyone to join.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gnostic_scripture_discussions/
      --Ben


      --
      He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
      through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.


      [This message contained attachments]



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      Message: 4
      Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:17:52 -0000
      From: "Ben"
      Subject: Re: gnosticism and the end of time

      Here's something I worte to another group:

      I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its
      been a while...
      but um there are 7 directions...... forward backward..left right up
      down and within.....

      7 days. of creation...7 stages of alchemy (visita interiora terrae
      rectificando invenies occultum lapidem)..7 spheres before the
      supernal triangle....etc.....

      Now kaplan also discusses Oroboros..does he not....
      the end is the beginning is the end.....

      he states 2 polar opposites...lets say kether and malkuth.....lets
      call them past(kether) future(malkuth).....now if these were 2
      imaginary points...polar opposites..that stretch out for infinity in
      opposite dirtections...kaplan states they reach a point of
      infinity...and eventually come back upon them selves...and meet..
      (this is modern maths.....pardon my ignorance I'm just saying what
      kaplan said).....thus the end is the beginning is the end......Indeed
      some forms of kabbalah teach that kether is closer to malkuth than it
      is to chockmah.......

      this fits in nicely with many ideas such a hindu and buddhist thought
      that states the end is indeed the beginning.....we can also see this
      in western esoteric thought....the divine trinity of creation
      destruction and redemtion.....which is the same as the Rosicrucian
      trinity of
      "Ex Deo nascimur.

      In Jesu Morimur

      Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus."

      We are born in God...we die in Christ and are reborn in the Holy
      SPirit.......

      so creation destruction redemption is again much like the kabbalist
      (and many others) idea of a return to a better state.....the end is
      the beginning is the end....

      this also fits in with 1 modern alternative to the standard big bang
      idea that states such as I have said
      above....creation....destruction...creation...an endless cycle....

      No one had raised this point...so I thought I would....

      --Ben

      Well....here are some thoughts....

      Many people like to see the tree as Linear.....as you say from A to T
      or O to Z or whatever.....I think this is wrong....
      Clearly if we look at Phi or the image of Oroboros we see that things
      are not linear...indeed one modern magician/kabbalist states time is
      a spiral and this explains why "distant past" is closer to the
      present than the future.....and thus this is why it is "easy" to
      contact the distant past in meditation/magic etc (sadly you really
      need to see the diagram to conceive of this
      fully...probably).....many kabbalaists also assert that the tree is
      not linear....

      How does this relate to kabbalah?.....well the tree can be seen in
      many ways....the standard linear model familiar to us......the
      Lurianic "modern" tree and the "hermetic tree" are but one way to
      picture the tree....as you probably know.....I even have a diagram of
      the tree as a 5 pointed star at home.....but anyway...in Judaic
      kabbalah the tree has been shown as 1 big circle with concentric
      circles within it......so we have one big circle with lesser circles
      within it.....

      Now on another post someone mentioned the fractal nature of the
      tree......so the tree is not 2d.....frankly is a sphere 2
      dimensional? no...the plan is 2d(due to the limitation of the printed
      page)....but in reality the tree is not flat.....so what if we
      picture the tree as one sphere......one coherant sphere ....then like
      a fractal within the sphere we have the standard lurianic or hermetic
      trees......much like a fractal...zooming in for greater detail...and
      then of course each of the 10 within the original 1 can be zoomed in
      upon.....

      Now what does this have to do with the beginning is the end is the
      beginning? Well a sphere and a circle have no end........and no
      beginning...they just are.....much like the earth is not
      flat.......its a sphere...if it had an end we'd fall off (forgetting
      gravity etc for a second)........

      Now in Christian Kabbalah at least (I know this isnt valid for all
      forms) the tree is seen as an imperfect tree

      (the kircher tree... http://www.digital-
      brilliance.com/kab/kircher.gif the blanced pre fall tree is the Gra
      tree http://www.tarot.org.il/Images/GRA_ToL.png )

      the tree after the falll.....originally malkuth was where daath was
      (ending our YHVH quaterinty of kether chockmah and binah...flame oil
      lamp...illumined)thus the "great work" is to make malkuth go back to
      where it originally was.....daath....

      but essentially thats what I meant by creation destruction
      redemption.....

      eden...(creation) perfect state.........the fall (where we are
      now..some would argue we are still falling)....redemptiona climg back
      out of the fall back to eden.......thus the end is the beginning is
      the end...

      from womb to tomb to womb....

      --
      He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
      through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.









      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 5
      Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 22:38:42 -0000
      From: pmcvflag
      Subject: Re: Greetings!

      Hey John, welcome to the group. Are you interested in any one
      particular form of Gnosticism?

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "john_tomlinson2"
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi
      >
      > I'm a Gnostic and I'm looking forward to interacting with everyone.
      >
      > Light to all of you.
      >
      > John T
      >






      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 6
      Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 22:37:38 -0000
      From: pmcvflag
      Subject: Re: another newbie

      Hi Patricia, welcome to the group.

      Please let us know if there is anything that you find particularly
      interesting, and I am sure there are others in this group that may
      want to talk about it also.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia" wrote:
      >
      > Hello to all,
      > I'm Trisha, 43, and just the other day I discovered Gnosticism. I
      was
      > not raised in a religious environment, came to mainstream
      Christianity
      > in my 30's and dabbled therein for the next 10 years or so. I
      finally
      > got tired of trying to squeeze myself in the mold of MC
      (mainstream
      > Christianity) and was about to give up when, lo and behold!, an
      > internet research session led me onto the path of Gnosticism. It
      may
      > sound a bit crazy, but I feel as if I'm finally coming home. I've
      been
      > doing a lot of reading at the Gnosis.org site, opening my mind,
      having
      > my horizons broadened and it feels so GOOOOOOD!!! I joined this
      site
      > in the hope of learning from others. Thanks, and if anybody has
      > questions about, well, anything, feel free to ask.
      > Thanks again!
      >
      > Trisha
      >






      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 7
      Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:26:21 -0000
      From: pmcvflag
      Subject: Re: another newbie

      Hey Ben, welcome to the group. Looks like we got a bunch of new
      people all at once. It is always interesting to hear the different
      ways in which people have come to hear of Gnosticism.

      Since some of you new people have given us a brief intro of who you
      are and how you came to be here, let me take a moment to give you
      all an idea of where "here" is and what this group is all about.

      You all have probably already noticed that in the "Gnosticism"
      section of Yahoo Groups there are almost 300 forums dealing with the
      subject. Many of these groups have slightly, or sometimes very,
      different functions or focuses... so here is ours.

      For one, we are very careful here with the definition of the
      term "Gnosticism". As you all may already know the term "Gnosticism"
      was invented by modern scholors, and we stick to a historical
      definition just so there is no confusion about what anyone is
      talking about. We fully understand that the word has come to be used
      in many different ways, and that is ok, but when we use it here we
      mean it in the traditional sense of the word.

      Also, we are not connected to any modern "Gnostic" church or order,
      but instead deal only with the beliefs as they are exhibited in the
      historical texts like the Nag Hammadi. This does not mean that we
      are not interested in personal spiritual paths, just that we try to
      never loose focus concerning how that may or may not relate to the
      historical groups. Many people here do not consider themselves to
      be "Gnostic", though many others do.

      Also, we do have some historians here, and sometimes the
      conversation can get a little technical... PLEASE don't be afraid to
      say so. It does not mean any of you are dumb, just that specialists
      sometimes forget when they are talking to a wider audience. We try
      to keep the specialist lingo to a minimum so that everyone knows
      what is going on... but we also rely on newbies to the subject to
      speak up and help the group include them in the conversation. We
      want everyone here to be able to express their interest in
      traditional Gnosticism and learn from each other.

      Anyone who wishes to better understand the historical Gnostics, this
      is probably one of the best places on the net for that. On the other
      hand, many people find that they are more interested in the personal
      journey more, and find that the traditional Gnostic groups are a bit
      dull. While we do hope it is fun and interesting here, if you do
      find this particular groups focus on the ancient text to be a bit of
      a yawn, may I offer another specific group that deals more with
      modern thinking and personal progression that still sometimes
      touches on historical Gnosticism from the opposite direction than we
      do.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GnosticThought/ That group is
      run by a person who is a member here as well, but the focus is much
      wider than this group.

      If you have any specific texts you would like to deal with, or any
      specific beliefs within Gnosticism, or interest in any particular
      sect.... questions, comments, disagreements..... feel free to start
      a conversation.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Hoomer wrote:
      >
      > Hello....newbie here as well...
      > Ben...31...
      > I was brought up in england around the town of Glastonbury ( a
      significant
      > place for Gnostics....)Though I attended CHurch of ENgland
      schools...I never
      > felt at home. I eventually went a bit new age....which lead
      to "paganism".
      > Whereupon I practised a form of magic.
      > I then "recently" met a wonderful woman...who just happens to be a
      > manichean essene/carmelite/coptic christian0
      (http://essenes.net/ ). So as I
      > consider myself a "grail seeker" first and foremost...I have no
      trouble
      > embracing Gnostcism and her spirituality...relaly it feels like a
      logical
      > growth from what I was doing already....
      > I joined this site as a "friend" of the AGCA (
      > http://gnostic-church.org/)...and am currently considering joining
      > "properly"....
      > My interest center around kabbalah, the grail and Gnosticism in
      general.
      > I have recently begun a Gnostic scriptures "book reading" group...
      > and invite anyone to join.
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gnostic_scripture_discussions/
      > --Ben
      >
      >
      > --
      > He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
      > through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.
      >






      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 8
      Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:31:43 -0000
      From: pmcvflag
      Subject: Re: another newbie

      BTW, Ben...

      While the Grail myths are not technically Gnostic, I also have an
      interest in them. I run another group (with a far wider focus) that
      deals with them, the troubadours and "Courtly Love", as well as a
      number of related forms of esoteric romance. Here is the URL for
      anyone here who is interested...

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/esotericromance/

      PMCV



      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Hoomer wrote:
      >
      > Hello....newbie here as well...
      > Ben...31...
      > I was brought up in england around the town of Glastonbury ( a
      significant
      > place for Gnostics....)Though I attended CHurch of ENgland
      schools...I never
      > felt at home. I eventually went a bit new age....which lead
      to "paganism".
      > Whereupon I practised a form of magic.
      > I then "recently" met a wonderful woman...who just happens to be a
      > manichean essene/carmelite/coptic christian0
      (http://essenes.net/ ). So as I
      > consider myself a "grail seeker" first and foremost...I have no
      trouble
      > embracing Gnostcism and her spirituality...relaly it feels like a
      logical
      > growth from what I was doing already....
      > I joined this site as a "friend" of the AGCA (
      > http://gnostic-church.org/)...and am currently considering joining
      > "properly"....
      > My interest center around kabbalah, the grail and Gnosticism in
      general.
      > I have recently begun a Gnostic scriptures "book reading" group...
      > and invite anyone to join.
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gnostic_scripture_discussions/
      > --Ben
      >
      >
      > --
      > He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
      > through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.
      >






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