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Re: gnosticism and the end of time

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  • Lincoln S.
    ... that the ... overcome ... time ... ancient ... of ... Please, if anyone knows more about the fire that lurks within the world and/or the teachings of
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 5, 2005
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:

      > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
      that "the
      > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
      overcome
      > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
      > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
      > Scriptures," p. 295:
      > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
      time
      > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
      ancient
      > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
      > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part
      of
      > the Stoic physics."
      >
      > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
      >
      > Cari
      >

      Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
      world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
      very interested. Thanks.

      Lincoln
    • lady_caritas
      ... part ... Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic physics: http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3 Please keep in mind though that
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 7, 2005
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Lincoln S." <doubtfull_one@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
        > that "the
        > > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
        > overcome
        > > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
        > > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
        > > Scriptures," p. 295:
        > > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
        > time
        > > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
        > ancient
        > > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
        > > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a
        part
        > of
        > > the Stoic physics."
        > >
        > > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
        > >
        > > Cari
        > >
        >
        > Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
        > world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
        > very interested. Thanks.
        >
        > Lincoln
        >


        Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic
        physics:
        http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3

        Please keep in mind though that the Stoics were materialists, which
        the Gnostics definitely were *NOT*. The Stoics believed in
        successive cycles of this fiery destruction and recovery, whereas
        Bentley Layton's footnote describes a conflagration of the world into
        NONexistence (according to Irenaeus's summary of Ptolemy's Version of
        the Gnostic Myth).

        I'm curious Lincoln as to the background for your interest in end
        time matters?

        Cari
      • Ben
        Here s something I worte to another group: I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its been a while... but um there are 7
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 8, 2005
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          Here's something I worte to another group:

          I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its
          been a while...
          but um there are 7 directions...... forward backward..left right up
          down and within.....

          7 days. of creation...7 stages of alchemy (visita interiora terrae
          rectificando invenies occultum lapidem)..7 spheres before the
          supernal triangle....etc.....

          Now kaplan also discusses Oroboros..does he not....
          the end is the beginning is the end.....

          he states 2 polar opposites...lets say kether and malkuth.....lets
          call them past(kether) future(malkuth).....now if these were 2
          imaginary points...polar opposites..that stretch out for infinity in
          opposite dirtections...kaplan states they reach a point of
          infinity...and eventually come back upon them selves...and meet..
          (this is modern maths.....pardon my ignorance I'm just saying what
          kaplan said).....thus the end is the beginning is the end......Indeed
          some forms of kabbalah teach that kether is closer to malkuth than it
          is to chockmah.......

          this fits in nicely with many ideas such a hindu and buddhist thought
          that states the end is indeed the beginning.....we can also see this
          in western esoteric thought....the divine trinity of creation
          destruction and redemtion.....which is the same as the Rosicrucian
          trinity of
          "Ex Deo nascimur.

          In Jesu Morimur

          Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus."

          We are born in God...we die in Christ and are reborn in the Holy
          SPirit.......

          so creation destruction redemption is again much like the kabbalist
          (and many others) idea of a return to a better state.....the end is
          the beginning is the end....

          this also fits in with 1 modern alternative to the standard big bang
          idea that states such as I have said
          above....creation....destruction...creation...an endless cycle....

          No one had raised this point...so I thought I would....

          --Ben

          Well....here are some thoughts....

          Many people like to see the tree as Linear.....as you say from A to T
          or O to Z or whatever.....I think this is wrong....
          Clearly if we look at Phi or the image of Oroboros we see that things
          are not linear...indeed one modern magician/kabbalist states time is
          a spiral and this explains why "distant past" is closer to the
          present than the future.....and thus this is why it is "easy" to
          contact the distant past in meditation/magic etc (sadly you really
          need to see the diagram to conceive of this
          fully...probably).....many kabbalaists also assert that the tree is
          not linear....

          How does this relate to kabbalah?.....well the tree can be seen in
          many ways....the standard linear model familiar to us......the
          Lurianic "modern" tree and the "hermetic tree" are but one way to
          picture the tree....as you probably know.....I even have a diagram of
          the tree as a 5 pointed star at home.....but anyway...in Judaic
          kabbalah the tree has been shown as 1 big circle with concentric
          circles within it......so we have one big circle with lesser circles
          within it.....

          Now on another post someone mentioned the fractal nature of the
          tree......so the tree is not 2d.....frankly is a sphere 2
          dimensional? no...the plan is 2d(due to the limitation of the printed
          page)....but in reality the tree is not flat.....so what if we
          picture the tree as one sphere......one coherant sphere ....then like
          a fractal within the sphere we have the standard lurianic or hermetic
          trees......much like a fractal...zooming in for greater detail...and
          then of course each of the 10 within the original 1 can be zoomed in
          upon.....

          Now what does this have to do with the beginning is the end is the
          beginning? Well a sphere and a circle have no end........and no
          beginning...they just are.....much like the earth is not
          flat.......its a sphere...if it had an end we'd fall off (forgetting
          gravity etc for a second)........

          Now in Christian Kabbalah at least (I know this isnt valid for all
          forms) the tree is seen as an imperfect tree

          (the kircher tree... http://www.digital-
          brilliance.com/kab/kircher.gif the blanced pre fall tree is the Gra
          tree http://www.tarot.org.il/Images/GRA_ToL.png )

          the tree after the falll.....originally malkuth was where daath was
          (ending our YHVH quaterinty of kether chockmah and binah...flame oil
          lamp...illumined)thus the "great work" is to make malkuth go back to
          where it originally was.....daath....

          but essentially thats what I meant by creation destruction
          redemption.....

          eden...(creation) perfect state.........the fall (where we are
          now..some would argue we are still falling)....redemptiona climg back
          out of the fall back to eden.......thus the end is the beginning is
          the end...

          from womb to tomb to womb....

          --
          He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
          through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.
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