Re: do we ?
- Hey Julie
Scholars do not include Zoroastrians to be a form of "Gnosticism".
The Zoroastrians did not consider themselves to be Gnostics
either... so I am not sure what the value would be in calling them
by that name. I understand that many people expand the
term "Gnostic" quite a bit, but I am not sure what the purpose of
doing so is. In this group we keep the term pretty tight.
--- In email@example.com, "Julie ........N" <jn1947@y...>
>the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant
> do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being
that i know of
>**** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the
> = = = = = = = = = = =
> * * * * "I believe because it is impossible" (tertullian)
power of God unto salvation" (romans 1:16) * * * *
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "doubtfull_one"
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
> texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of
> If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.Hi Lincoln and hello to all
Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three
mountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.
- Hello Bakn4
>>>Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the threemountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.<<<
I don't recall this in the Pistis Sophia, but it has been some time
since I read it. It would seem out of place considering the other
teachings in the book.
As for Samael.... this group deals only with Gnosticism, and Samael
does not technically fit that category. In other words, he is off
- --- In email@example.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
> In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mentionthat "the
> fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,overcome
> all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitivetime
> nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
> Scriptures," p. 295:
> "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
> will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part ofancient
> physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that theof
> world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part
> the Stoic physics."Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
> Perhaps other members might have additional information.
world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
very interested. Thanks.
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Lincoln S." <doubtfull_one@y...>
> --- In email@example.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
> > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
> that "the
> > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
> > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
> > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
> > Scriptures," p. 295:
> > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
> > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
> > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
> > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a
> ofLincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic
> > the Stoic physics."
> > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
> > Cari
> Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
> world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
> very interested. Thanks.
Please keep in mind though that the Stoics were materialists, which
the Gnostics definitely were *NOT*. The Stoics believed in
successive cycles of this fiery destruction and recovery, whereas
Bentley Layton's footnote describes a conflagration of the world into
NONexistence (according to Irenaeus's summary of Ptolemy's Version of
the Gnostic Myth).
I'm curious Lincoln as to the background for your interest in end
- Here's something I worte to another group:
I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its
been a while...
but um there are 7 directions...... forward backward..left right up
down and within.....
7 days. of creation...7 stages of alchemy (visita interiora terrae
rectificando invenies occultum lapidem)..7 spheres before the
Now kaplan also discusses Oroboros..does he not....
the end is the beginning is the end.....
he states 2 polar opposites...lets say kether and malkuth.....lets
call them past(kether) future(malkuth).....now if these were 2
imaginary points...polar opposites..that stretch out for infinity in
opposite dirtections...kaplan states they reach a point of
infinity...and eventually come back upon them selves...and meet..
(this is modern maths.....pardon my ignorance I'm just saying what
kaplan said).....thus the end is the beginning is the end......Indeed
some forms of kabbalah teach that kether is closer to malkuth than it
is to chockmah.......
this fits in nicely with many ideas such a hindu and buddhist thought
that states the end is indeed the beginning.....we can also see this
in western esoteric thought....the divine trinity of creation
destruction and redemtion.....which is the same as the Rosicrucian
"Ex Deo nascimur.
In Jesu Morimur
Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus."
We are born in God...we die in Christ and are reborn in the Holy
so creation destruction redemption is again much like the kabbalist
(and many others) idea of a return to a better state.....the end is
the beginning is the end....
this also fits in with 1 modern alternative to the standard big bang
idea that states such as I have said
above....creation....destruction...creation...an endless cycle....
No one had raised this point...so I thought I would....
Well....here are some thoughts....
Many people like to see the tree as Linear.....as you say from A to T
or O to Z or whatever.....I think this is wrong....
Clearly if we look at Phi or the image of Oroboros we see that things
are not linear...indeed one modern magician/kabbalist states time is
a spiral and this explains why "distant past" is closer to the
present than the future.....and thus this is why it is "easy" to
contact the distant past in meditation/magic etc (sadly you really
need to see the diagram to conceive of this
fully...probably).....many kabbalaists also assert that the tree is
How does this relate to kabbalah?.....well the tree can be seen in
many ways....the standard linear model familiar to us......the
Lurianic "modern" tree and the "hermetic tree" are but one way to
picture the tree....as you probably know.....I even have a diagram of
the tree as a 5 pointed star at home.....but anyway...in Judaic
kabbalah the tree has been shown as 1 big circle with concentric
circles within it......so we have one big circle with lesser circles
Now on another post someone mentioned the fractal nature of the
tree......so the tree is not 2d.....frankly is a sphere 2
dimensional? no...the plan is 2d(due to the limitation of the printed
page)....but in reality the tree is not flat.....so what if we
picture the tree as one sphere......one coherant sphere ....then like
a fractal within the sphere we have the standard lurianic or hermetic
trees......much like a fractal...zooming in for greater detail...and
then of course each of the 10 within the original 1 can be zoomed in
Now what does this have to do with the beginning is the end is the
beginning? Well a sphere and a circle have no end........and no
beginning...they just are.....much like the earth is not
flat.......its a sphere...if it had an end we'd fall off (forgetting
gravity etc for a second)........
Now in Christian Kabbalah at least (I know this isnt valid for all
forms) the tree is seen as an imperfect tree
(the kircher tree... http://www.digital-
brilliance.com/kab/kircher.gif the blanced pre fall tree is the Gra
tree http://www.tarot.org.il/Images/GRA_ToL.png )
the tree after the falll.....originally malkuth was where daath was
(ending our YHVH quaterinty of kether chockmah and binah...flame oil
lamp...illumined)thus the "great work" is to make malkuth go back to
where it originally was.....daath....
but essentially thats what I meant by creation destruction
eden...(creation) perfect state.........the fall (where we are
now..some would argue we are still falling)....redemptiona climg back
out of the fall back to eden.......thus the end is the beginning is
from womb to tomb to womb....
He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.