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Re: gnosticism and the end of time

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  • lady_caritas
    ... time . ... Hello, Lincoln. Historical Gnostics generally were more concerned with cosmogony and reunion with the Source than with eschatology.
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2005
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "doubtfull_one"
      <doubtfull_one@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
      > texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of
      time".
      > If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Lincoln
      >


      Hello, Lincoln. Historical Gnostics generally were more concerned
      with cosmogony and reunion with the Source than with
      eschatology. "Resurrection" in a spiritual, not literally bodily
      sense would come with Gnosis in this lifetime as passersby on this
      planet.

      In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention that "the
      fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire, overcome
      all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
      nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
      Scriptures," p. 295:
      "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due time
      will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of ancient
      physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
      world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part of
      the Stoic physics."

      Perhaps other members might have additional information.

      Cari
    • Julie ........N
      do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant that i know of = = =
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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        do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant that i know of


                =    =     =     =     =     =     =     =     =    =     =
         
        * * * *  "I believe because it is impossible"   (tertullian)    **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the power of God unto salvation"  (romans 1:16) * * * *               
         
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Julie Scholars do not include Zoroastrians to be a form of Gnosticism . The Zoroastrians did not consider themselves to be Gnostics either... so I am not
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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          Hey Julie

          Scholars do not include Zoroastrians to be a form of "Gnosticism".
          The Zoroastrians did not consider themselves to be Gnostics
          either... so I am not sure what the value would be in calling them
          by that name. I understand that many people expand the
          term "Gnostic" quite a bit, but I am not sure what the purpose of
          doing so is. In this group we keep the term pretty tight.

          PMCV

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Julie ........N" <jn1947@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being
          the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant
          that i know of
          >
          >
          > = = = = = = = = = = =
          >
          > * * * * "I believe because it is impossible" (tertullian)
          **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the
          power of God unto salvation" (romans 1:16) * * * *
          >
        • bakn4
          ... time . ... Hi Lincoln and hello to all Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three mountains, and I m sure I ve heard that there
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "doubtfull_one"
            <doubtfull_one@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
            > texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of
            time".
            > If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Lincoln
            >
            Hi Lincoln and hello to all

            Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three
            mountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
            the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.
          • pmcvflag
            Hello Bakn4 ... mountains, and I m sure I ve heard that there is a date mentioned in the pistis sophia,but I haven t checked this out.
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 4, 2005
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              Hello Bakn4

              >>>Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three
              mountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
              the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.<<<

              I don't recall this in the Pistis Sophia, but it has been some time
              since I read it. It would seem out of place considering the other
              teachings in the book.

              As for Samael.... this group deals only with Gnosticism, and Samael
              does not technically fit that category. In other words, he is off
              topic here.

              PMCV
            • Lincoln S.
              ... that the ... overcome ... time ... ancient ... of ... Please, if anyone knows more about the fire that lurks within the world and/or the teachings of
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 5, 2005
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:

                > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
                that "the
                > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
                overcome
                > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
                > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
                > Scriptures," p. 295:
                > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
                time
                > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
                ancient
                > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
                > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part
                of
                > the Stoic physics."
                >
                > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
                >
                > Cari
                >

                Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
                world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
                very interested. Thanks.

                Lincoln
              • lady_caritas
                ... part ... Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic physics: http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3 Please keep in mind though that
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 7, 2005
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Lincoln S." <doubtfull_one@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
                  > that "the
                  > > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
                  > overcome
                  > > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
                  > > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
                  > > Scriptures," p. 295:
                  > > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
                  > time
                  > > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
                  > ancient
                  > > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
                  > > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a
                  part
                  > of
                  > > the Stoic physics."
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
                  > >
                  > > Cari
                  > >
                  >
                  > Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
                  > world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
                  > very interested. Thanks.
                  >
                  > Lincoln
                  >


                  Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic
                  physics:
                  http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3

                  Please keep in mind though that the Stoics were materialists, which
                  the Gnostics definitely were *NOT*. The Stoics believed in
                  successive cycles of this fiery destruction and recovery, whereas
                  Bentley Layton's footnote describes a conflagration of the world into
                  NONexistence (according to Irenaeus's summary of Ptolemy's Version of
                  the Gnostic Myth).

                  I'm curious Lincoln as to the background for your interest in end
                  time matters?

                  Cari
                • Ben
                  Here s something I worte to another group: I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its been a while... but um there are 7
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 8, 2005
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                    Here's something I worte to another group:

                    I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its
                    been a while...
                    but um there are 7 directions...... forward backward..left right up
                    down and within.....

                    7 days. of creation...7 stages of alchemy (visita interiora terrae
                    rectificando invenies occultum lapidem)..7 spheres before the
                    supernal triangle....etc.....

                    Now kaplan also discusses Oroboros..does he not....
                    the end is the beginning is the end.....

                    he states 2 polar opposites...lets say kether and malkuth.....lets
                    call them past(kether) future(malkuth).....now if these were 2
                    imaginary points...polar opposites..that stretch out for infinity in
                    opposite dirtections...kaplan states they reach a point of
                    infinity...and eventually come back upon them selves...and meet..
                    (this is modern maths.....pardon my ignorance I'm just saying what
                    kaplan said).....thus the end is the beginning is the end......Indeed
                    some forms of kabbalah teach that kether is closer to malkuth than it
                    is to chockmah.......

                    this fits in nicely with many ideas such a hindu and buddhist thought
                    that states the end is indeed the beginning.....we can also see this
                    in western esoteric thought....the divine trinity of creation
                    destruction and redemtion.....which is the same as the Rosicrucian
                    trinity of
                    "Ex Deo nascimur.

                    In Jesu Morimur

                    Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus."

                    We are born in God...we die in Christ and are reborn in the Holy
                    SPirit.......

                    so creation destruction redemption is again much like the kabbalist
                    (and many others) idea of a return to a better state.....the end is
                    the beginning is the end....

                    this also fits in with 1 modern alternative to the standard big bang
                    idea that states such as I have said
                    above....creation....destruction...creation...an endless cycle....

                    No one had raised this point...so I thought I would....

                    --Ben

                    Well....here are some thoughts....

                    Many people like to see the tree as Linear.....as you say from A to T
                    or O to Z or whatever.....I think this is wrong....
                    Clearly if we look at Phi or the image of Oroboros we see that things
                    are not linear...indeed one modern magician/kabbalist states time is
                    a spiral and this explains why "distant past" is closer to the
                    present than the future.....and thus this is why it is "easy" to
                    contact the distant past in meditation/magic etc (sadly you really
                    need to see the diagram to conceive of this
                    fully...probably).....many kabbalaists also assert that the tree is
                    not linear....

                    How does this relate to kabbalah?.....well the tree can be seen in
                    many ways....the standard linear model familiar to us......the
                    Lurianic "modern" tree and the "hermetic tree" are but one way to
                    picture the tree....as you probably know.....I even have a diagram of
                    the tree as a 5 pointed star at home.....but anyway...in Judaic
                    kabbalah the tree has been shown as 1 big circle with concentric
                    circles within it......so we have one big circle with lesser circles
                    within it.....

                    Now on another post someone mentioned the fractal nature of the
                    tree......so the tree is not 2d.....frankly is a sphere 2
                    dimensional? no...the plan is 2d(due to the limitation of the printed
                    page)....but in reality the tree is not flat.....so what if we
                    picture the tree as one sphere......one coherant sphere ....then like
                    a fractal within the sphere we have the standard lurianic or hermetic
                    trees......much like a fractal...zooming in for greater detail...and
                    then of course each of the 10 within the original 1 can be zoomed in
                    upon.....

                    Now what does this have to do with the beginning is the end is the
                    beginning? Well a sphere and a circle have no end........and no
                    beginning...they just are.....much like the earth is not
                    flat.......its a sphere...if it had an end we'd fall off (forgetting
                    gravity etc for a second)........

                    Now in Christian Kabbalah at least (I know this isnt valid for all
                    forms) the tree is seen as an imperfect tree

                    (the kircher tree... http://www.digital-
                    brilliance.com/kab/kircher.gif the blanced pre fall tree is the Gra
                    tree http://www.tarot.org.il/Images/GRA_ToL.png )

                    the tree after the falll.....originally malkuth was where daath was
                    (ending our YHVH quaterinty of kether chockmah and binah...flame oil
                    lamp...illumined)thus the "great work" is to make malkuth go back to
                    where it originally was.....daath....

                    but essentially thats what I meant by creation destruction
                    redemption.....

                    eden...(creation) perfect state.........the fall (where we are
                    now..some would argue we are still falling)....redemptiona climg back
                    out of the fall back to eden.......thus the end is the beginning is
                    the end...

                    from womb to tomb to womb....

                    --
                    He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
                    through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.
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