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part two........gnosticism and the end of time

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  • Julie ........N
    doubtfull_one doubtfull_one@yahoo.com.....any written gnostic texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the end of time . If so, could you point me
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 31, 2005
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      doubtfull_one doubtfull_one@........any written gnostic
      texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of time".
      If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
      ===========================
       
           jn1947@... ....don't know if you would include zoroastrians within "gnostic" corral.  but i've heard-tell that zoroastrian writing re "end-times" is interesting.  haven't done any investigating myself on this topic,  yet - - if all else fails - - zorastrian concepts might be your jumping-off point
       
      then, we do know that their were gnostic sub-groups among moslems,  so that the koran's dicta re "end-times" might be another possibility.  i guess the same could be said re gnostic christians.  perhaps the web might be informative re what gnostic-christian bands such as paulicians thought re  "the end of days"
       
       


              =    =     =     =     =     =     =     =     =    =     =
       
      * * * *  "I believe because it is impossible"   (tertullian)    **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the power of God unto salvation"  (romans 1:16) * * * *               
       
    • lady_caritas
      ... time . ... Hello, Lincoln. Historical Gnostics generally were more concerned with cosmogony and reunion with the Source than with eschatology.
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2005
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "doubtfull_one"
        <doubtfull_one@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
        > texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of
        time".
        > If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Lincoln
        >


        Hello, Lincoln. Historical Gnostics generally were more concerned
        with cosmogony and reunion with the Source than with
        eschatology. "Resurrection" in a spiritual, not literally bodily
        sense would come with Gnosis in this lifetime as passersby on this
        planet.

        In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention that "the
        fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire, overcome
        all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
        nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
        Scriptures," p. 295:
        "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due time
        will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of ancient
        physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
        world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part of
        the Stoic physics."

        Perhaps other members might have additional information.

        Cari
      • Julie ........N
        do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant that i know of = = =
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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          do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant that i know of


                  =    =     =     =     =     =     =     =     =    =     =
           
          * * * *  "I believe because it is impossible"   (tertullian)    **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the power of God unto salvation"  (romans 1:16) * * * *               
           
        • pmcvflag
          Hey Julie Scholars do not include Zoroastrians to be a form of Gnosticism . The Zoroastrians did not consider themselves to be Gnostics either... so I am not
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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            Hey Julie

            Scholars do not include Zoroastrians to be a form of "Gnosticism".
            The Zoroastrians did not consider themselves to be Gnostics
            either... so I am not sure what the value would be in calling them
            by that name. I understand that many people expand the
            term "Gnostic" quite a bit, but I am not sure what the purpose of
            doing so is. In this group we keep the term pretty tight.

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Julie ........N" <jn1947@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being
            the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant
            that i know of
            >
            >
            > = = = = = = = = = = =
            >
            > * * * * "I believe because it is impossible" (tertullian)
            **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the
            power of God unto salvation" (romans 1:16) * * * *
            >
          • bakn4
            ... time . ... Hi Lincoln and hello to all Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three mountains, and I m sure I ve heard that there
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "doubtfull_one"
              <doubtfull_one@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
              > texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of
              time".
              > If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Lincoln
              >
              Hi Lincoln and hello to all

              Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three
              mountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
              the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.
            • pmcvflag
              Hello Bakn4 ... mountains, and I m sure I ve heard that there is a date mentioned in the pistis sophia,but I haven t checked this out.
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 4, 2005
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                Hello Bakn4

                >>>Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three
                mountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
                the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.<<<

                I don't recall this in the Pistis Sophia, but it has been some time
                since I read it. It would seem out of place considering the other
                teachings in the book.

                As for Samael.... this group deals only with Gnosticism, and Samael
                does not technically fit that category. In other words, he is off
                topic here.

                PMCV
              • Lincoln S.
                ... that the ... overcome ... time ... ancient ... of ... Please, if anyone knows more about the fire that lurks within the world and/or the teachings of
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 5, 2005
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                  wrote:

                  > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
                  that "the
                  > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
                  overcome
                  > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
                  > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
                  > Scriptures," p. 295:
                  > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
                  time
                  > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
                  ancient
                  > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
                  > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part
                  of
                  > the Stoic physics."
                  >
                  > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
                  >
                  > Cari
                  >

                  Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
                  world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
                  very interested. Thanks.

                  Lincoln
                • lady_caritas
                  ... part ... Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic physics: http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3 Please keep in mind though that
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 7, 2005
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Lincoln S." <doubtfull_one@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
                    > that "the
                    > > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
                    > overcome
                    > > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
                    > > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
                    > > Scriptures," p. 295:
                    > > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
                    > time
                    > > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
                    > ancient
                    > > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
                    > > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a
                    part
                    > of
                    > > the Stoic physics."
                    > >
                    > > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
                    > >
                    > > Cari
                    > >
                    >
                    > Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
                    > world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
                    > very interested. Thanks.
                    >
                    > Lincoln
                    >


                    Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic
                    physics:
                    http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3

                    Please keep in mind though that the Stoics were materialists, which
                    the Gnostics definitely were *NOT*. The Stoics believed in
                    successive cycles of this fiery destruction and recovery, whereas
                    Bentley Layton's footnote describes a conflagration of the world into
                    NONexistence (according to Irenaeus's summary of Ptolemy's Version of
                    the Gnostic Myth).

                    I'm curious Lincoln as to the background for your interest in end
                    time matters?

                    Cari
                  • Ben
                    Here s something I worte to another group: I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its been a while... but um there are 7
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 8, 2005
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                      Here's something I worte to another group:

                      I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its
                      been a while...
                      but um there are 7 directions...... forward backward..left right up
                      down and within.....

                      7 days. of creation...7 stages of alchemy (visita interiora terrae
                      rectificando invenies occultum lapidem)..7 spheres before the
                      supernal triangle....etc.....

                      Now kaplan also discusses Oroboros..does he not....
                      the end is the beginning is the end.....

                      he states 2 polar opposites...lets say kether and malkuth.....lets
                      call them past(kether) future(malkuth).....now if these were 2
                      imaginary points...polar opposites..that stretch out for infinity in
                      opposite dirtections...kaplan states they reach a point of
                      infinity...and eventually come back upon them selves...and meet..
                      (this is modern maths.....pardon my ignorance I'm just saying what
                      kaplan said).....thus the end is the beginning is the end......Indeed
                      some forms of kabbalah teach that kether is closer to malkuth than it
                      is to chockmah.......

                      this fits in nicely with many ideas such a hindu and buddhist thought
                      that states the end is indeed the beginning.....we can also see this
                      in western esoteric thought....the divine trinity of creation
                      destruction and redemtion.....which is the same as the Rosicrucian
                      trinity of
                      "Ex Deo nascimur.

                      In Jesu Morimur

                      Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus."

                      We are born in God...we die in Christ and are reborn in the Holy
                      SPirit.......

                      so creation destruction redemption is again much like the kabbalist
                      (and many others) idea of a return to a better state.....the end is
                      the beginning is the end....

                      this also fits in with 1 modern alternative to the standard big bang
                      idea that states such as I have said
                      above....creation....destruction...creation...an endless cycle....

                      No one had raised this point...so I thought I would....

                      --Ben

                      Well....here are some thoughts....

                      Many people like to see the tree as Linear.....as you say from A to T
                      or O to Z or whatever.....I think this is wrong....
                      Clearly if we look at Phi or the image of Oroboros we see that things
                      are not linear...indeed one modern magician/kabbalist states time is
                      a spiral and this explains why "distant past" is closer to the
                      present than the future.....and thus this is why it is "easy" to
                      contact the distant past in meditation/magic etc (sadly you really
                      need to see the diagram to conceive of this
                      fully...probably).....many kabbalaists also assert that the tree is
                      not linear....

                      How does this relate to kabbalah?.....well the tree can be seen in
                      many ways....the standard linear model familiar to us......the
                      Lurianic "modern" tree and the "hermetic tree" are but one way to
                      picture the tree....as you probably know.....I even have a diagram of
                      the tree as a 5 pointed star at home.....but anyway...in Judaic
                      kabbalah the tree has been shown as 1 big circle with concentric
                      circles within it......so we have one big circle with lesser circles
                      within it.....

                      Now on another post someone mentioned the fractal nature of the
                      tree......so the tree is not 2d.....frankly is a sphere 2
                      dimensional? no...the plan is 2d(due to the limitation of the printed
                      page)....but in reality the tree is not flat.....so what if we
                      picture the tree as one sphere......one coherant sphere ....then like
                      a fractal within the sphere we have the standard lurianic or hermetic
                      trees......much like a fractal...zooming in for greater detail...and
                      then of course each of the 10 within the original 1 can be zoomed in
                      upon.....

                      Now what does this have to do with the beginning is the end is the
                      beginning? Well a sphere and a circle have no end........and no
                      beginning...they just are.....much like the earth is not
                      flat.......its a sphere...if it had an end we'd fall off (forgetting
                      gravity etc for a second)........

                      Now in Christian Kabbalah at least (I know this isnt valid for all
                      forms) the tree is seen as an imperfect tree

                      (the kircher tree... http://www.digital-
                      brilliance.com/kab/kircher.gif the blanced pre fall tree is the Gra
                      tree http://www.tarot.org.il/Images/GRA_ToL.png )

                      the tree after the falll.....originally malkuth was where daath was
                      (ending our YHVH quaterinty of kether chockmah and binah...flame oil
                      lamp...illumined)thus the "great work" is to make malkuth go back to
                      where it originally was.....daath....

                      but essentially thats what I meant by creation destruction
                      redemption.....

                      eden...(creation) perfect state.........the fall (where we are
                      now..some would argue we are still falling)....redemptiona climg back
                      out of the fall back to eden.......thus the end is the beginning is
                      the end...

                      from womb to tomb to womb....

                      --
                      He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
                      through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.
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