Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

gnosticism and the end of time

Expand Messages
  • doubtfull_one
    Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the end of time . If so, could you point
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 30, 2005
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
      texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of time".
      If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
      Thanks.

      Lincoln
    • Julie ........N
      doubtfull_one doubtfull_one@yahoo.com.....any written gnostic texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the end of time . If so, could you point me
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 31, 2005
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment


        doubtfull_one doubtfull_one@........any written gnostic
        texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of time".
        If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
        ===========================
         
             jn1947@... ....don't know if you would include zoroastrians within "gnostic" corral.  but i've heard-tell that zoroastrian writing re "end-times" is interesting.  haven't done any investigating myself on this topic,  yet - - if all else fails - - zorastrian concepts might be your jumping-off point
         
        then, we do know that their were gnostic sub-groups among moslems,  so that the koran's dicta re "end-times" might be another possibility.  i guess the same could be said re gnostic christians.  perhaps the web might be informative re what gnostic-christian bands such as paulicians thought re  "the end of days"
         
         


                =    =     =     =     =     =     =     =     =    =     =
         
        * * * *  "I believe because it is impossible"   (tertullian)    **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the power of God unto salvation"  (romans 1:16) * * * *               
         
      • lady_caritas
        ... time . ... Hello, Lincoln. Historical Gnostics generally were more concerned with cosmogony and reunion with the Source than with eschatology.
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2005
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "doubtfull_one"
          <doubtfull_one@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
          > texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of
          time".
          > If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
          > Thanks.
          >
          > Lincoln
          >


          Hello, Lincoln. Historical Gnostics generally were more concerned
          with cosmogony and reunion with the Source than with
          eschatology. "Resurrection" in a spiritual, not literally bodily
          sense would come with Gnosis in this lifetime as passersby on this
          planet.

          In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention that "the
          fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire, overcome
          all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
          nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
          Scriptures," p. 295:
          "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due time
          will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of ancient
          physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
          world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part of
          the Stoic physics."

          Perhaps other members might have additional information.

          Cari
        • Julie ........N
          do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant that i know of = = =
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment

            do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant that i know of


                    =    =     =     =     =     =     =     =     =    =     =
             
            * * * *  "I believe because it is impossible"   (tertullian)    **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the power of God unto salvation"  (romans 1:16) * * * *               
             
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Julie Scholars do not include Zoroastrians to be a form of Gnosticism . The Zoroastrians did not consider themselves to be Gnostics either... so I am not
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Hey Julie

              Scholars do not include Zoroastrians to be a form of "Gnosticism".
              The Zoroastrians did not consider themselves to be Gnostics
              either... so I am not sure what the value would be in calling them
              by that name. I understand that many people expand the
              term "Gnostic" quite a bit, but I am not sure what the purpose of
              doing so is. In this group we keep the term pretty tight.

              PMCV

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Julie ........N" <jn1947@y...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > do we consider the parsis to be gnostic in nature - - parsis being
              the last remnant of zorastrians - - or at least the last remnant
              that i know of
              >
              >
              > = = = = = = = = = = =
              >
              > * * * * "I believe because it is impossible" (tertullian)
              **** "for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ ; for it is the
              power of God unto salvation" (romans 1:16) * * * *
              >
            • bakn4
              ... time . ... Hi Lincoln and hello to all Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three mountains, and I m sure I ve heard that there
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "doubtfull_one"
                <doubtfull_one@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello, I was wondering if anyone is aware of any written gnostic
                > texts that discuss in prophecy or otherwise mention the "end of
                time".
                > If so, could you point me in the right direction to do the reading.
                > Thanks.
                >
                > Lincoln
                >
                Hi Lincoln and hello to all

                Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three
                mountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
                the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.
              • pmcvflag
                Hello Bakn4 ... mountains, and I m sure I ve heard that there is a date mentioned in the pistis sophia,but I haven t checked this out.
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 4, 2005
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Bakn4

                  >>>Master sameal aun woer writes about this time in his book the three
                  mountains, and I'm sure I've heard that there is a date mentioned in
                  the pistis sophia,but I haven't checked this out.<<<

                  I don't recall this in the Pistis Sophia, but it has been some time
                  since I read it. It would seem out of place considering the other
                  teachings in the book.

                  As for Samael.... this group deals only with Gnosticism, and Samael
                  does not technically fit that category. In other words, he is off
                  topic here.

                  PMCV
                • Lincoln S.
                  ... that the ... overcome ... time ... ancient ... of ... Please, if anyone knows more about the fire that lurks within the world and/or the teachings of
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 5, 2005
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                    wrote:

                    > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
                    that "the
                    > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
                    overcome
                    > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
                    > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
                    > Scriptures," p. 295:
                    > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
                    time
                    > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
                    ancient
                    > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
                    > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a part
                    of
                    > the Stoic physics."
                    >
                    > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
                    >
                    > Cari
                    >

                    Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
                    world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
                    very interested. Thanks.

                    Lincoln
                  • lady_caritas
                    ... part ... Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic physics: http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3 Please keep in mind though that
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 7, 2005
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Lincoln S." <doubtfull_one@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > In Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth, there is mention
                      > that "the
                      > > fire that lurks within the world will flare up, catch fire,
                      > overcome
                      > > all matter, be consumed along with it, and enter into definitive
                      > > nonexistence." Bentley Layton notes in his book, _The Gnostic
                      > > Scriptures," p. 295:
                      > > "f. The idea of a fire that lurks within the world and in due
                      > time
                      > > will flare up and consume the world was a well-known part of
                      > ancient
                      > > physics, as taught by the Stoic school. But the belief that the
                      > > world will then `enter into definitive nonexistence' is not a
                      part
                      > of
                      > > the Stoic physics."
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps other members might have additional information.
                      > >
                      > > Cari
                      > >
                      >
                      > Please, if anyone knows more about the "fire that lurks within the
                      > world" and/or the teachings of the Stoic school in this regard I am
                      > very interested. Thanks.
                      >
                      > Lincoln
                      >


                      Lincoln, I can give you a link explaining a bit more about Stoic
                      physics:
                      http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htm#H3

                      Please keep in mind though that the Stoics were materialists, which
                      the Gnostics definitely were *NOT*. The Stoics believed in
                      successive cycles of this fiery destruction and recovery, whereas
                      Bentley Layton's footnote describes a conflagration of the world into
                      NONexistence (according to Irenaeus's summary of Ptolemy's Version of
                      the Gnostic Myth).

                      I'm curious Lincoln as to the background for your interest in end
                      time matters?

                      Cari
                    • Ben
                      Here s something I worte to another group: I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its been a while... but um there are 7
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 8, 2005
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Here's something I worte to another group:

                        I thought Kaplan used past and future for Kether and Malkuth.....its
                        been a while...
                        but um there are 7 directions...... forward backward..left right up
                        down and within.....

                        7 days. of creation...7 stages of alchemy (visita interiora terrae
                        rectificando invenies occultum lapidem)..7 spheres before the
                        supernal triangle....etc.....

                        Now kaplan also discusses Oroboros..does he not....
                        the end is the beginning is the end.....

                        he states 2 polar opposites...lets say kether and malkuth.....lets
                        call them past(kether) future(malkuth).....now if these were 2
                        imaginary points...polar opposites..that stretch out for infinity in
                        opposite dirtections...kaplan states they reach a point of
                        infinity...and eventually come back upon them selves...and meet..
                        (this is modern maths.....pardon my ignorance I'm just saying what
                        kaplan said).....thus the end is the beginning is the end......Indeed
                        some forms of kabbalah teach that kether is closer to malkuth than it
                        is to chockmah.......

                        this fits in nicely with many ideas such a hindu and buddhist thought
                        that states the end is indeed the beginning.....we can also see this
                        in western esoteric thought....the divine trinity of creation
                        destruction and redemtion.....which is the same as the Rosicrucian
                        trinity of
                        "Ex Deo nascimur.

                        In Jesu Morimur

                        Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus."

                        We are born in God...we die in Christ and are reborn in the Holy
                        SPirit.......

                        so creation destruction redemption is again much like the kabbalist
                        (and many others) idea of a return to a better state.....the end is
                        the beginning is the end....

                        this also fits in with 1 modern alternative to the standard big bang
                        idea that states such as I have said
                        above....creation....destruction...creation...an endless cycle....

                        No one had raised this point...so I thought I would....

                        --Ben

                        Well....here are some thoughts....

                        Many people like to see the tree as Linear.....as you say from A to T
                        or O to Z or whatever.....I think this is wrong....
                        Clearly if we look at Phi or the image of Oroboros we see that things
                        are not linear...indeed one modern magician/kabbalist states time is
                        a spiral and this explains why "distant past" is closer to the
                        present than the future.....and thus this is why it is "easy" to
                        contact the distant past in meditation/magic etc (sadly you really
                        need to see the diagram to conceive of this
                        fully...probably).....many kabbalaists also assert that the tree is
                        not linear....

                        How does this relate to kabbalah?.....well the tree can be seen in
                        many ways....the standard linear model familiar to us......the
                        Lurianic "modern" tree and the "hermetic tree" are but one way to
                        picture the tree....as you probably know.....I even have a diagram of
                        the tree as a 5 pointed star at home.....but anyway...in Judaic
                        kabbalah the tree has been shown as 1 big circle with concentric
                        circles within it......so we have one big circle with lesser circles
                        within it.....

                        Now on another post someone mentioned the fractal nature of the
                        tree......so the tree is not 2d.....frankly is a sphere 2
                        dimensional? no...the plan is 2d(due to the limitation of the printed
                        page)....but in reality the tree is not flat.....so what if we
                        picture the tree as one sphere......one coherant sphere ....then like
                        a fractal within the sphere we have the standard lurianic or hermetic
                        trees......much like a fractal...zooming in for greater detail...and
                        then of course each of the 10 within the original 1 can be zoomed in
                        upon.....

                        Now what does this have to do with the beginning is the end is the
                        beginning? Well a sphere and a circle have no end........and no
                        beginning...they just are.....much like the earth is not
                        flat.......its a sphere...if it had an end we'd fall off (forgetting
                        gravity etc for a second)........

                        Now in Christian Kabbalah at least (I know this isnt valid for all
                        forms) the tree is seen as an imperfect tree

                        (the kircher tree... http://www.digital-
                        brilliance.com/kab/kircher.gif the blanced pre fall tree is the Gra
                        tree http://www.tarot.org.il/Images/GRA_ToL.png )

                        the tree after the falll.....originally malkuth was where daath was
                        (ending our YHVH quaterinty of kether chockmah and binah...flame oil
                        lamp...illumined)thus the "great work" is to make malkuth go back to
                        where it originally was.....daath....

                        but essentially thats what I meant by creation destruction
                        redemption.....

                        eden...(creation) perfect state.........the fall (where we are
                        now..some would argue we are still falling)....redemptiona climg back
                        out of the fall back to eden.......thus the end is the beginning is
                        the end...

                        from womb to tomb to womb....

                        --
                        He who knows both knowledge and ignorance together, crosses death
                        through ignorance and attains immortality through knowledge.
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.