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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Proto-Baptist Nazarean Order

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  • Tsharpmin7@aol.com
    hi JML... you re right, Francis didn t set out to found a monastic order. i believe i said as much. but your assertion that Francis discovered the joy of
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 14, 2005
      hi JML... you're right, Francis didn't set out to found a monastic order.  i believe i said as much.  but your assertion that "Francis discovered the joy of charity and this is what he sought after" is news to me. 
      i've probably devoted the equivalent of a college semester studying Francis and the culture of his time and geography, and "the joy of charity" doesn't appear to be a motivating factor for Francis' psychological conversion and subsequent actions, which is not to claim that Francis wasn't charitable or Francis didn't see value in charity/service (the common attitudes toward charity in Francis' world were more closely related to the Islamic norm than our current, and imo immature, attitudes toward charity here in the West, i.e., their's was more of a human to human obligation or necessity than the current "feel good," "look what i've done," or "score points with God" kind of motivations which are more often than not rather ironic, if not hypocritical, acts of selfishness). 
      as has happened to multitudes of people before and since Francis, Francis' psychological conversion was immediately preceded by an extended period of terror and illness, and the outward manifestation of surviving those events was Francis' choice of extreme apostolaic poverty, and, for Francis, this choice of poverty was but one of several means (some others being prayer, meditation and service) he would employ in seeking what might be more akin to the Greek idea of metanoia (spiritual conversion or awakening; fundamental change of character) or enlightenment than the usually negatively charged and self-debasing concept of Christian repentance. 
      though this is admittedly oversimplifying things, aside from his teaching ministry pretty much all else in Francis' life was an epiphenomenon of his search for a personal, spiritual awakening.  imo,  joy and pleasure were far, far secondary considerations for Francis [though his attitude toward, and relations with, Chiara Offreduccio (later Saint Clare of Assisi) may have been a healthy exception].
      you friend,
      Crispin Sainte III
      In a message dated 10/13/2005 7:52:36 AM Central Standard Time, jemelzwa@... writes:
      St' Francis discovered the joy of charity and this is what he sought
      after and not the founding of an order. I too seek the joy of
      charity. Yet, I have developed liturgies by comparing the Bible,
      apochrypha and Mandaean materials that are more attractive to me
      than the Christian rites and musical services. I think there are
      many people out there Christian and non-Christian alike that would
      be interested in such a reconstruction.

      I did not do this for any publicity, but rather for the guaging of
      divinity while the term of my life quikly runs out. It would be nice
      if I was assisted with the passing of this life by means of these

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Tsharpmin7@a... wrote:

      > In a message dated 9/20/2005 10:16:59 AM Central Standard Time, 
      > jemelzwa@y... writes:
      > Greetings
      > I am on a mission to start a religious order  practicing regular
      > and daily baptismal and ablution rites among  others with liturgies
      > that are reconstructions of the rite of John the  Baptist.
      However, I
      > have no experience in monastic disciplines and would  like
      > However, I am not interested in participating in the rites  and
      > services of other religious orders. I only want to train in  their
      > general life style.
      > I want to know if there are any Gnostic  monastic communities out
      > that would support my cause. I am willing to  do community work
      just so
      > long as I can practice the rites of my order and  do some research
      > learn Semetic languages. I only need some drilling in  the general
      > lifestyle. Also, I can assist other order in developing  liturgies
      > their own  rites.
      > PEACE
      > jml

      > hi jml, i might suggest a study of Francis of Assisi and the
      history of the 
      > order that eventually took his name.  Francis of Assisi: A
      > Life, by Adrian House, is the best i ever read on the subject.  
      it clearly
      > illustrates how in the process of developing his order there  were
      many problems
      > Francis had to find solutions to, some of which were endemic  to
      the times and
      > culture he lived in, yet others deal with aspects of  human
      behavior and foible
      > one no doubt would encounter in our time and  our (Western)

      > however, the thing to remember about Francis as applies to
      your "mission"  is
      > this:  Francis did not set out to found an order... the order
      found  Francis.
      >  The people came to Francis because they wanted what they
      imagined  Francis
      > had.  like misers to gold they came, and Francis turned many of 
      them away. 
      > nevertheless Francis was neither wise nor perceptive  enough to
      filter out all
      > seekers whose motives were less than sincere.  as  a matter of
      fact, as the
      > order grew, Francis, for a time and much to his  chagrin, was
      virtually reduced
      > to being an administrator.  and in seeking  to alleviate this
      problem Francis
      > essentially ran away and turned responsibility  over to others
      and, to be
      > brief, the order, within Francis' lifetime, devolved  into mere
      ritual, imitation
      > and orthodoxy.  no more gold, only fool's  gold;  containers
      without content.

      > if you are golden, if you are in possession of qualities and
      vision  that
      > others wish to develop or emulate, the order will come to you just
      as  it did for
      > Francis and Ghandi and Rumi and Valentinus and Plato,  etc.  
      anything less
      > is merely ego, entertainment and religious  tourism.  and i echo
      Cari in
      > wanting to know what you believe you have to  offer other than
      ritual and ceremony
      > and how you imagine this might benefit a  person who joined your

      > your friend,

      > Crispin Sainte III
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