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Re: The Valentinian System of Ptolemaeus, nature of the universe

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  • frendlyfascist
    Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly influenced by the New Age movement. I quese what Im saying is that even matter must in some way
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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      Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly
      influenced by the "New Age" movement. I quese what Im saying is that
      even matter must in some way originate in the Pleroma, for if
      nothing but God existed in the begining, everything has to be made
      of his substance. "The glory of God is to conceal a thing." Proverbs
      25:2


      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "frendlyfascist"
      > <frendlyfascist@y...> wrote:
      > > Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
      > > scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
      > > Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
      > Achamoths
      > > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
      > but
      > > is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
      > > negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
      >
      >
      > Hello, frendly.
      >
      > Your proposition carried further:
      >
      > If energy = matter,
      > And if spirit = energy,
      > Then spirit = matter?
      > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      >
      > Question back at ya:
      > Did the Gnostics ever equate spirit with energy or matter?
      >
      >
      > Cari
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Friendlyfascist, you state.... ... be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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        Hey Friendlyfascist, you state....

        >>"Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems to
        be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not
        written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by Ptolemaeus
        himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other Bible" which
        contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other texts.
        Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of 30 Aeons
        and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of humans. After
        each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers Biblical proof for his
        claims."<<

        If I recall correctly, the books from "The Other Bible" are actually
        from Ireneus, just as the piece Lady Cari gave is. What we have from
        Ptolomy was preserved in the heresiologists. For instance, the
        commentary on John is from Ireneus, and the letter to Flora is from
        Epiphanius.

        I have also seen, somewhere, the outline that Cari gave us written
        as if it were a direct quote from Ptolemy... maybe that was in
        the "Other Bible"? I don't remember the contents of "The Other
        Bible" (though I think that the commentary on John is one of the
        things it includes), so perhaps you could take a look for us and
        tell us exactly which writings you are telling us about.

        You go on to state....

        >>"Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly
        influenced by the "New Age" movement. I quese what Im saying is that
        even matter must in some way originate in the Pleroma, for if
        nothing but God existed in the begining, everything has to be made
        of his substance. "The glory of God is to conceal a thing." Proverbs
        25:2"<<<

        This may seem intuitively true for you... and it may be a true
        observation... but it is not something that the Gnostics generally
        agreed with. Well, let me qualify that a bit. The Gnostic texts
        often take some pains to seperate the Pleroma from physical
        creation. This may vary from text to text, but more often than not
        we do see some kind of destinction, and in some cases it is very
        overt. For instance, if we examine the more familiar version of the
        Sophia myth, we see her seperation on the edge of the Pleroma, and
        matter comming into existance outside of the Pleroma due to that
        distance from the source.

        In that way it could be accurate to say that matter has a source in
        the Pleroma, but it is made very clear that matter is not a part of
        the Pleroma.... and that it is seperate from spirit. One of the
        things that defines Gnosticism is this observation of matter as a
        prison for the spirit (rather than an aspect of the spirit), which
        would make it very incompatible with the notion of matter and spirit
        as one.

        PMCV
      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello lady_caritas ... [cut long quote] I have Layton s book, but I m reading the Gnostic Bible first, and had not noticed this when I went through Layton s
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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          Hello lady_caritas

          On 07/11/05, you wrote:

          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
          >> Hello frendlyfascist
          >>
          >> On 07/11/05, you wrote:
          >>
          >>> Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
          >>> scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
          >>> Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
          > Achamoths
          >> > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
          > but
          >>> is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
          >>> negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
          >>
          >> Where did you find that scripture?
          >>
          >> Regards
          >> --
          >> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi, Mike. I'm not sure which scripture frendly is referring to
          > (he/she can enlighten us), but Bentley Layton in _The Gnostic
          > Scriptures_ has Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth (according to
          > St. Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies 1.1.1-1.8.5).
          >
          > Regarding Achamoth and the origin of matter (p. 289):

          [cut long quote]

          I have Layton's book, but I'm reading the Gnostic Bible first, and had
          not noticed this when I went through Layton's table of contents. Of
          course I wasn't looking for it in particular.

          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
        • Mike Leavitt
          Hello frendlyfascist ... Her quote was from Irenaeus book, not by him. The Other Bible , another book I have to get. Regards -- Mike Leavitt
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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            Hello frendlyfascist

            On 07/11/05, you wrote:

            > Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems to be
            > qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not
            > written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by Ptolemaeus
            > himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other Bible" which
            > contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other texts.
            > Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of 30 Aeons
            > and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of humans. After
            > each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers Biblical proof for his
            > claims.

            Her quote was from Irenaeus book, not by him. "The Other Bible",
            another book I have to get.

            Regards
            --
            Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
          • frendlyfascist
            Ptolemaeus writtings in the Other Bible include The Valentinian System of Ptolemaeus and his letter to Flora. Ptolemaeus Commentary on John isnt in the
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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              Ptolemaeus writtings in the "Other Bible" include The Valentinian
              System of Ptolemaeus and his letter to Flora. Ptolemaeus Commentary
              on John isnt in the "Other Bible", but is in the "Gnostic Bible"

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > Hey Friendlyfascist, you state....
              >
              > >>"Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems
              to
              > be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is
              not
              > written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by Ptolemaeus
              > himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other Bible" which
              > contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other texts.
              > Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of 30 Aeons
              > and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of humans. After
              > each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers Biblical proof for
              his
              > claims."<<
              >
              > If I recall correctly, the books from "The Other Bible" are
              actually
              > from Ireneus, just as the piece Lady Cari gave is. What we have
              from
              > Ptolomy was preserved in the heresiologists. For instance, the
              > commentary on John is from Ireneus, and the letter to Flora is
              from
              > Epiphanius.
              >
              > I have also seen, somewhere, the outline that Cari gave us written
              > as if it were a direct quote from Ptolemy... maybe that was in
              > the "Other Bible"? I don't remember the contents of "The Other
              > Bible" (though I think that the commentary on John is one of the
              > things it includes), so perhaps you could take a look for us and
              > tell us exactly which writings you are telling us about.
              >
              > You go on to state....
              >
              > >>"Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly
              > influenced by the "New Age" movement. I quese what Im saying is
              that
              > even matter must in some way originate in the Pleroma, for if
              > nothing but God existed in the begining, everything has to be made
              > of his substance. "The glory of God is to conceal a thing."
              Proverbs
              > 25:2"<<<
              >
              > This may seem intuitively true for you... and it may be a true
              > observation... but it is not something that the Gnostics generally
              > agreed with. Well, let me qualify that a bit. The Gnostic texts
              > often take some pains to seperate the Pleroma from physical
              > creation. This may vary from text to text, but more often than not
              > we do see some kind of destinction, and in some cases it is very
              > overt. For instance, if we examine the more familiar version of
              the
              > Sophia myth, we see her seperation on the edge of the Pleroma, and
              > matter comming into existance outside of the Pleroma due to that
              > distance from the source.
              >
              > In that way it could be accurate to say that matter has a source
              in
              > the Pleroma, but it is made very clear that matter is not a part
              of
              > the Pleroma.... and that it is seperate from spirit. One of the
              > things that defines Gnosticism is this observation of matter as a
              > prison for the spirit (rather than an aspect of the spirit), which
              > would make it very incompatible with the notion of matter and
              spirit
              > as one.
              >
              > PMCV
            • Darius C. Rohman
              where did I find The Gnostic Bible? please someone tell me!!! Mike Leavitt wrote: Hello lady_caritas ... [cut long quote] I have Layton s
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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                where did I find The Gnostic Bible?
                please someone tell me!!!

                Mike Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
                Hello lady_caritas

                On 07/11/05, you wrote:

                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                >> Hello frendlyfascist
                >>
                >> On 07/11/05, you wrote:
                >>
                >>> Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
                >>> scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
                >>> Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
                > Achamoths
                >> > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
                > but
                >>> is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
                >>> negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
                >>
                >> Where did you find that scripture?
                >>
                >> Regards
                >> --
                >> Mike Leavitt  ac998_@_lafn._org  remove -'s
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi, Mike.  I'm not sure which scripture frendly is referring to
                > (he/she can enlighten us), but Bentley Layton in _The Gnostic
                > Scriptures_ has Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth (according to
                > St. Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies 1.1.1-1.8.5).
                >
                > Regarding Achamoth and the origin of matter (p. 289):

                [cut long quote]

                I have Layton's book, but I'm reading the Gnostic Bible first, and had
                not noticed this when I went through Layton's table of contents.  Of
                course I wasn't looking for it in particular.

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt  ac998_@_lafn._org  remove -'s




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              • Gerry
                ... In the interest of clarifying the clarifications, I d like to point out that Willis Barnstone does cite the sources of these texts. In _The Other Bible_,
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 12, 2005
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "frendlyfascist"
                  <frendlyfascist@y...> wrote:
                  > Ptolemaeus writtings in the "Other Bible" include The Valentinian
                  > System of Ptolemaeus and his letter to Flora. Ptolemaeus Commentary
                  > on John isnt in the "Other Bible", but is in the "Gnostic Bible"
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems
                  > > to be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have
                  > > is not written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by
                  > > Ptolemaeus himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other
                  > > Bible" which contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other
                  > > texts. Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of
                  > > 30 Aeons and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of
                  > > humans. After each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers
                  > > Biblical proof for his claims.
                  > >



                  In the interest of clarifying the clarifications, I'd like to point
                  out that Willis Barnstone does cite the sources of these texts. In
                  _The Other Bible_, he mentions the following on pg. 621:

                  Irenaeus' refutation of Valentinianism is directed primarily against
                  that form of it created by Ptolemaeus, and our description of the
                  system is translated from Irenaeus, Adv. haer. i. 1-8 . . . .

                  In his "Letter to Flora" he set forth the answers to some theological
                  difficulties encountered by a Christian woman named Flora, carefully
                  leading her along a seemingly orthodox path to the point where she
                  will recognize that the Valentinians share in the apostolic tradition
                  and that the truth of their teaching is guaranteed by the words of
                  the Savior. This letter is preserved by Epiphanius, Pan. haer.
                  xxxiii. 3-7 . . . .


                  He attributes the latter text again in _The Gnostic Bible_ on pg. 300:

                  Ptolemy's Letter to Flora survives in Greek as a quotation from a
                  work by the heresiologist Epiphanius of Salamis in his Panarion
                  (33.3–7); translated by Grant, _Gnosticism_, pp. 184–90; adapted by
                  Willis Barnstone.

                  Also included in this volume is *Herakleon's* Commentary on the
                  Gospel of John (pg. 307).

                  Gerry
                • Gerry
                  ... A bookstore sounds like a reasonable answer. Gerry
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 12, 2005
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Darius C. Rohman"
                    <simongnosticus@y...> wrote:
                    > where did I find The Gnostic Bible?
                    > please someone tell me!!!
                    >



                    "A bookstore" sounds like a reasonable answer.

                    Gerry
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