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The Valentinian System of Ptolemaeus, nature of the universe

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  • frendlyfascist
    Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of Ptolemaeus. In this text the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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      Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
      scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
      Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of Achamoths
      emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy, but
      is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
      negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
    • lady_caritas
      ... Achamoths ... but ... Hello, frendly. Your proposition carried further: If energy = matter, And if spirit = energy, Then spirit = matter? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "frendlyfascist"
        <frendlyfascist@y...> wrote:
        > Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
        > scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
        > Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
        Achamoths
        > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
        but
        > is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
        > negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?


        Hello, frendly.

        Your proposition carried further:

        If energy = matter,
        And if spirit = energy,
        Then spirit = matter?
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Question back at ya:
        Did the Gnostics ever equate spirit with energy or matter?


        Cari
      • lady_caritas
        ... Achamoths ... but ... Hi, Mike. I m not sure which scripture frendly is referring to (he/she can enlighten us), but Bentley Layton in _The Gnostic
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
          > Hello frendlyfascist
          >
          > On 07/11/05, you wrote:
          >
          > > Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
          > > scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
          > > Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
          Achamoths
          > > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
          but
          > > is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
          > > negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
          >
          > Where did you find that scripture?
          >
          > Regards
          > --
          > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s



          Hi, Mike. I'm not sure which scripture frendly is referring to
          (he/she can enlighten us), but Bentley Layton in _The Gnostic
          Scriptures_ has Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth (according to
          St. Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies 1.1.1-1.8.5).

          Regarding Achamoth and the origin of matter (p. 289):

          "Because she was unable to pass through the boundary since she was
          involved with passion, and she had been left outside and alone, she
          became subject to every aspect of manifold and diverse passion: she
          suffered grief, because she had not understood; fear, lest life
          should leave her just as light had done; uncertainty, at all of
          these; and everything in lack of acquaintance.

          "And unlike the aeon first wisdom (Sophia), her mother, in these
          passions she experienced not alteration but rather contrariety; and a
          different condition came to be present in her, one of turning back
          toward the one who had made her alive.

          "She -- they say -- accounts for the genesis and essence of the
          matter out of which this world came into being. For, the entire soul
          of the world and the craftsman had its origination in her turning
          back; other things and their beginning in her fear and her grief.
          Indeed, all moist essences came into being from her tears; luminous
          ones, from her laughter; and the bodily elements of the world, from
          her grief and terror. For sometimes -- they say -- she cried and
          felt grief because of being left alone in the darkness and emptiness;
          sometimes she proceeded to thought about the light that had left her,
          and she relaxed and laughed; sometimes she was afraid; and yet other
          times she became uncertain and distraught."


          Cari
        • Mike Leavitt
          Hello frendlyfascist ... Where did you find that scripture? Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove - s
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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            Hello frendlyfascist

            On 07/11/05, you wrote:

            > Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
            > scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
            > Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of Achamoths
            > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy, but
            > is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
            > negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?

            Where did you find that scripture?

            Regards
            --
            Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
          • frendlyfascist
            Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems to be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not written by the St.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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              Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems to be
              qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not
              written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by Ptolemaeus
              himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other Bible" which
              contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other texts.
              Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of 30 Aeons
              and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of humans. After
              each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers Biblical proof for his
              claims.
              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
              wrote:
              > > Hello frendlyfascist
              > >
              > > On 07/11/05, you wrote:
              > >
              > > > Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
              > > > scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
              > > > Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
              > Achamoths
              > > > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually
              energy,
              > but
              > > > is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even
              Achamoth's
              > > > negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
              > >
              > > Where did you find that scripture?
              > >
              > > Regards
              > > --
              > > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi, Mike. I'm not sure which scripture frendly is referring to
              > (he/she can enlighten us), but Bentley Layton in _The Gnostic
              > Scriptures_ has Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth (according
              to
              > St. Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies 1.1.1-1.8.5).
              >
              > Regarding Achamoth and the origin of matter (p. 289):
              >
              > "Because she was unable to pass through the boundary since she was
              > involved with passion, and she had been left outside and alone,
              she
              > became subject to every aspect of manifold and diverse passion:
              she
              > suffered grief, because she had not understood; fear, lest life
              > should leave her just as light had done; uncertainty, at all of
              > these; and everything in lack of acquaintance.
              >
              > "And unlike the aeon first wisdom (Sophia), her mother, in these
              > passions she experienced not alteration but rather contrariety;
              and a
              > different condition came to be present in her, one of turning back
              > toward the one who had made her alive.
              >
              > "She -- they say -- accounts for the genesis and essence of the
              > matter out of which this world came into being. For, the entire
              soul
              > of the world and the craftsman had its origination in her turning
              > back; other things and their beginning in her fear and her grief.
              > Indeed, all moist essences came into being from her tears;
              luminous
              > ones, from her laughter; and the bodily elements of the world,
              from
              > her grief and terror. For sometimes -- they say -- she cried and
              > felt grief because of being left alone in the darkness and
              emptiness;
              > sometimes she proceeded to thought about the light that had left
              her,
              > and she relaxed and laughed; sometimes she was afraid; and yet
              other
              > times she became uncertain and distraught."
              >
              >
              > Cari
            • frendlyfascist
              Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly influenced by the New Age movement. I quese what Im saying is that even matter must in some way
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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                Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly
                influenced by the "New Age" movement. I quese what Im saying is that
                even matter must in some way originate in the Pleroma, for if
                nothing but God existed in the begining, everything has to be made
                of his substance. "The glory of God is to conceal a thing." Proverbs
                25:2


                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "frendlyfascist"
                > <frendlyfascist@y...> wrote:
                > > Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
                > > scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
                > > Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
                > Achamoths
                > > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
                > but
                > > is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
                > > negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
                >
                >
                > Hello, frendly.
                >
                > Your proposition carried further:
                >
                > If energy = matter,
                > And if spirit = energy,
                > Then spirit = matter?
                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                >
                > Question back at ya:
                > Did the Gnostics ever equate spirit with energy or matter?
                >
                >
                > Cari
              • pmcvflag
                Hey Friendlyfascist, you state.... ... be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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                  Hey Friendlyfascist, you state....

                  >>"Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems to
                  be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not
                  written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by Ptolemaeus
                  himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other Bible" which
                  contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other texts.
                  Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of 30 Aeons
                  and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of humans. After
                  each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers Biblical proof for his
                  claims."<<

                  If I recall correctly, the books from "The Other Bible" are actually
                  from Ireneus, just as the piece Lady Cari gave is. What we have from
                  Ptolomy was preserved in the heresiologists. For instance, the
                  commentary on John is from Ireneus, and the letter to Flora is from
                  Epiphanius.

                  I have also seen, somewhere, the outline that Cari gave us written
                  as if it were a direct quote from Ptolemy... maybe that was in
                  the "Other Bible"? I don't remember the contents of "The Other
                  Bible" (though I think that the commentary on John is one of the
                  things it includes), so perhaps you could take a look for us and
                  tell us exactly which writings you are telling us about.

                  You go on to state....

                  >>"Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly
                  influenced by the "New Age" movement. I quese what Im saying is that
                  even matter must in some way originate in the Pleroma, for if
                  nothing but God existed in the begining, everything has to be made
                  of his substance. "The glory of God is to conceal a thing." Proverbs
                  25:2"<<<

                  This may seem intuitively true for you... and it may be a true
                  observation... but it is not something that the Gnostics generally
                  agreed with. Well, let me qualify that a bit. The Gnostic texts
                  often take some pains to seperate the Pleroma from physical
                  creation. This may vary from text to text, but more often than not
                  we do see some kind of destinction, and in some cases it is very
                  overt. For instance, if we examine the more familiar version of the
                  Sophia myth, we see her seperation on the edge of the Pleroma, and
                  matter comming into existance outside of the Pleroma due to that
                  distance from the source.

                  In that way it could be accurate to say that matter has a source in
                  the Pleroma, but it is made very clear that matter is not a part of
                  the Pleroma.... and that it is seperate from spirit. One of the
                  things that defines Gnosticism is this observation of matter as a
                  prison for the spirit (rather than an aspect of the spirit), which
                  would make it very incompatible with the notion of matter and spirit
                  as one.

                  PMCV
                • Mike Leavitt
                  Hello lady_caritas ... [cut long quote] I have Layton s book, but I m reading the Gnostic Bible first, and had not noticed this when I went through Layton s
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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                    Hello lady_caritas

                    On 07/11/05, you wrote:

                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                    >> Hello frendlyfascist
                    >>
                    >> On 07/11/05, you wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
                    >>> scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
                    >>> Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
                    > Achamoths
                    >> > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
                    > but
                    >>> is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
                    >>> negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
                    >>
                    >> Where did you find that scripture?
                    >>
                    >> Regards
                    >> --
                    >> Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi, Mike. I'm not sure which scripture frendly is referring to
                    > (he/she can enlighten us), but Bentley Layton in _The Gnostic
                    > Scriptures_ has Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth (according to
                    > St. Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies 1.1.1-1.8.5).
                    >
                    > Regarding Achamoth and the origin of matter (p. 289):

                    [cut long quote]

                    I have Layton's book, but I'm reading the Gnostic Bible first, and had
                    not noticed this when I went through Layton's table of contents. Of
                    course I wasn't looking for it in particular.

                    Regards
                    --
                    Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                  • Mike Leavitt
                    Hello frendlyfascist ... Her quote was from Irenaeus book, not by him. The Other Bible , another book I have to get. Regards -- Mike Leavitt
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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                      Hello frendlyfascist

                      On 07/11/05, you wrote:

                      > Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems to be
                      > qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is not
                      > written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by Ptolemaeus
                      > himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other Bible" which
                      > contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other texts.
                      > Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of 30 Aeons
                      > and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of humans. After
                      > each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers Biblical proof for his
                      > claims.

                      Her quote was from Irenaeus book, not by him. "The Other Bible",
                      another book I have to get.

                      Regards
                      --
                      Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
                    • frendlyfascist
                      Ptolemaeus writtings in the Other Bible include The Valentinian System of Ptolemaeus and his letter to Flora. Ptolemaeus Commentary on John isnt in the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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                        Ptolemaeus writtings in the "Other Bible" include The Valentinian
                        System of Ptolemaeus and his letter to Flora. Ptolemaeus Commentary
                        on John isnt in the "Other Bible", but is in the "Gnostic Bible"

                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > Hey Friendlyfascist, you state....
                        >
                        > >>"Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems
                        to
                        > be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have is
                        not
                        > written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by Ptolemaeus
                        > himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other Bible" which
                        > contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other texts.
                        > Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of 30 Aeons
                        > and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of humans. After
                        > each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers Biblical proof for
                        his
                        > claims."<<
                        >
                        > If I recall correctly, the books from "The Other Bible" are
                        actually
                        > from Ireneus, just as the piece Lady Cari gave is. What we have
                        from
                        > Ptolomy was preserved in the heresiologists. For instance, the
                        > commentary on John is from Ireneus, and the letter to Flora is
                        from
                        > Epiphanius.
                        >
                        > I have also seen, somewhere, the outline that Cari gave us written
                        > as if it were a direct quote from Ptolemy... maybe that was in
                        > the "Other Bible"? I don't remember the contents of "The Other
                        > Bible" (though I think that the commentary on John is one of the
                        > things it includes), so perhaps you could take a look for us and
                        > tell us exactly which writings you are telling us about.
                        >
                        > You go on to state....
                        >
                        > >>"Equating Spirit with energy is my own idea, probably highly
                        > influenced by the "New Age" movement. I quese what Im saying is
                        that
                        > even matter must in some way originate in the Pleroma, for if
                        > nothing but God existed in the begining, everything has to be made
                        > of his substance. "The glory of God is to conceal a thing."
                        Proverbs
                        > 25:2"<<<
                        >
                        > This may seem intuitively true for you... and it may be a true
                        > observation... but it is not something that the Gnostics generally
                        > agreed with. Well, let me qualify that a bit. The Gnostic texts
                        > often take some pains to seperate the Pleroma from physical
                        > creation. This may vary from text to text, but more often than not
                        > we do see some kind of destinction, and in some cases it is very
                        > overt. For instance, if we examine the more familiar version of
                        the
                        > Sophia myth, we see her seperation on the edge of the Pleroma, and
                        > matter comming into existance outside of the Pleroma due to that
                        > distance from the source.
                        >
                        > In that way it could be accurate to say that matter has a source
                        in
                        > the Pleroma, but it is made very clear that matter is not a part
                        of
                        > the Pleroma.... and that it is seperate from spirit. One of the
                        > things that defines Gnosticism is this observation of matter as a
                        > prison for the spirit (rather than an aspect of the spirit), which
                        > would make it very incompatible with the notion of matter and
                        spirit
                        > as one.
                        >
                        > PMCV
                      • Darius C. Rohman
                        where did I find The Gnostic Bible? please someone tell me!!! Mike Leavitt wrote: Hello lady_caritas ... [cut long quote] I have Layton s
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 11, 2005
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                          where did I find The Gnostic Bible?
                          please someone tell me!!!

                          Mike Leavitt <ac998@...> wrote:
                          Hello lady_caritas

                          On 07/11/05, you wrote:

                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                          >> Hello frendlyfascist
                          >>
                          >> On 07/11/05, you wrote:
                          >>
                          >>> Lately Ive been questioning the nature of the universe and one
                          >>> scripture which really attracts me is The Valentinian System of
                          >>> Ptolemaeus. In this text the material world is made out of
                          > Achamoths
                          >> > emotions. Scientists tell us that all matter is actually energy,
                          > but
                          >>> is not all this energy actually spirit? Will not even Achamoth's
                          >>> negative emotions be cleansed and restored to the pleroma?
                          >>
                          >> Where did you find that scripture?
                          >>
                          >> Regards
                          >> --
                          >> Mike Leavitt  ac998_@_lafn._org  remove -'s
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi, Mike.  I'm not sure which scripture frendly is referring to
                          > (he/she can enlighten us), but Bentley Layton in _The Gnostic
                          > Scriptures_ has Ptolemy's Version of the Gnostic Myth (according to
                          > St. Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies 1.1.1-1.8.5).
                          >
                          > Regarding Achamoth and the origin of matter (p. 289):

                          [cut long quote]

                          I have Layton's book, but I'm reading the Gnostic Bible first, and had
                          not noticed this when I went through Layton's table of contents.  Of
                          course I wasn't looking for it in particular.

                          Regards
                          --
                          Mike Leavitt  ac998_@_lafn._org  remove -'s




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                        • Gerry
                          ... In the interest of clarifying the clarifications, I d like to point out that Willis Barnstone does cite the sources of these texts. In _The Other Bible_,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 12, 2005
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "frendlyfascist"
                            <frendlyfascist@y...> wrote:
                            > Ptolemaeus writtings in the "Other Bible" include The Valentinian
                            > System of Ptolemaeus and his letter to Flora. Ptolemaeus Commentary
                            > on John isnt in the "Other Bible", but is in the "Gnostic Bible"
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Ptolemaeus is another name for ptolemy, and indeed Cari seems
                            > > to be qouting Ptolemaeus Valentinian System. But the text I have
                            > > is not written by the St. Irenaeus of Lyon, it was written by
                            > > Ptolemaeus himself. I found this text in a book titled "The Other
                            > > Bible" which contains a wide variety of Gnostic gospels and other
                            > > texts. Ptolemaeus Valentinian System starts with the emanation of
                            > > 30 Aeons and ends with a teaching on the three "classes" of
                            > > humans. After each "chapter" of this text Ptolemaeus offers
                            > > Biblical proof for his claims.
                            > >



                            In the interest of clarifying the clarifications, I'd like to point
                            out that Willis Barnstone does cite the sources of these texts. In
                            _The Other Bible_, he mentions the following on pg. 621:

                            Irenaeus' refutation of Valentinianism is directed primarily against
                            that form of it created by Ptolemaeus, and our description of the
                            system is translated from Irenaeus, Adv. haer. i. 1-8 . . . .

                            In his "Letter to Flora" he set forth the answers to some theological
                            difficulties encountered by a Christian woman named Flora, carefully
                            leading her along a seemingly orthodox path to the point where she
                            will recognize that the Valentinians share in the apostolic tradition
                            and that the truth of their teaching is guaranteed by the words of
                            the Savior. This letter is preserved by Epiphanius, Pan. haer.
                            xxxiii. 3-7 . . . .


                            He attributes the latter text again in _The Gnostic Bible_ on pg. 300:

                            Ptolemy's Letter to Flora survives in Greek as a quotation from a
                            work by the heresiologist Epiphanius of Salamis in his Panarion
                            (33.3–7); translated by Grant, _Gnosticism_, pp. 184–90; adapted by
                            Willis Barnstone.

                            Also included in this volume is *Herakleon's* Commentary on the
                            Gospel of John (pg. 307).

                            Gerry
                          • Gerry
                            ... A bookstore sounds like a reasonable answer. Gerry
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 12, 2005
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                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Darius C. Rohman"
                              <simongnosticus@y...> wrote:
                              > where did I find The Gnostic Bible?
                              > please someone tell me!!!
                              >



                              "A bookstore" sounds like a reasonable answer.

                              Gerry
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