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Re: Cathars & Basque

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  • simongnosticus
    A gnostic is a person who want to go away from his matrix, and become one with the LIGHT. ... strictly ... for
    Message 1 of 69 , Jul 4, 2005
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      A gnostic is a person who want to go away from his matrix, and
      become one with the LIGHT.
      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "George Harvey"
      <georgeatnsn@y...> wrote:
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...>
      wrote:
      > > Hello George
      > >
      > > On 06/23/05, you wrote:
      > >
      > > > Hi PMCV,
      > > > Thank you. Very well put. Maybe some classify them as Gnostic
      > > > because the Church called them heretics. It seems some people
      > > > confuse the two terms.
      > > >
      > > > Everybody,
      > > > Does anybody here think that they were Gnostic?
      > > >
      > > > George
      > >
      > > It's more than that, like the Marcionites, they had a rather
      > gnostic
      > > mythos, and gnosis was respected, it is just that salvation came
      > > through praxis and sacrament, more than through gnosis, so
      strictly
      > > speaking they weren't gnostics, maybe cousins, but not the real
      > > thing.
      > >
      > > Regards
      > > --
      > > Mike Leavitt ac998_@_lafn._org remove -'s
      >
      > Hi Mike,
      > I see. Yes, that would explain how someone who does not understand
      > that Gnostic myths does not equal Gnosticism would mistake them
      for
      > Gnostics. Thank you.
      >
      > Everyone,
      > Again. I would like to see what those who think they were Gnostic
      > would answer.
      >
      > George
    • Gerry
      ... The Romantic side of me might be inclined to hold out that we are simply not privy to the actual perspective of the Cathar Parfaits, but without anything
      Message 69 of 69 , Jul 4, 2005
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "George Harvey"
        <georgeatnsn@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you. Very well put. Maybe some classify them as Gnostic
        > because the Church called them heretics. It seems some people
        > confuse the two terms.
        >
        > Everybody,
        > Does anybody here think that they were Gnostic?
        >
        > George



        The Romantic side of me might be inclined to hold out that we are
        simply not privy to the actual perspective of the Cathar Parfaits,
        but without anything to substantiate it, this would simply be
        speculation (or wishful thinking).

        Even looking at the historical process as analogous with Gnostic
        myth, consider how those concepts might have degraded as they
        filtered through the Manichaeans, and the Bogomils, to the Cathars.
        This far from the source, they might have been little left but a
        shell of esoteric understanding, which by then, could have even been
        regarded through a more exoteric perspective . . . emanating from the
        Source to the point of no longer recognizing it.

        Indeed, George, that confusion you mentioned of equating "heretics"
        with "Gnostics" is something that I still observe. This is becoming
        quite the popular phenomenon of late. I've been waiting since
        February to see the release of Prada's new fragrance, inspired
        by "Thunder Perfect Mind" (have I missed it?). Well, inspiration may
        be one thing, but the fact that director Jordan Scott views the
        campaign as "a testament to women in all forms" does little to
        indicate that she appreciates the Gnostic value of the paradoxical
        text used in the project. Basically, it has become a marketing
        gimmick, and nothing more.

        You can also look to the lyrics of Tori Amos:

        There was a garden
        In the beginning
        Before the fall
        Before Genesis

        There was a tree there
        A tree of knowledge
        Sophia would insist
        You must eat of this

        Original sin?
        No, I don't think so
        Original sinsuality
        Original sin?
        No, it should be
        Original sinsuality
        Original sin?
        No, I don't think so
        Original sinsuality

        Yaldaboath
        Saklas
        I'm calling you
        Samael
        You are not alone
        I say
        You are not alone
        In your darkness
        You are not alone
        Baby
        You are not alone
        ——http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/toriamos/originalsinsuality.html

        In "Original Sinsuality," she succinctly lays out the bare bones of a
        Gnostic creation story, but her own interviews on the subject reveal
        that she was inspired by references in the works of Elaine Pagels,
        and that she basically liked the shock value of such texts. Well,
        there's shock value for the sake of bringing a person to a pneumatic
        awareness, and there's shock value for the sake of appealing to one's
        audience and selling more music.

        I suppose I'm cynical enough at this point to think that not only are
        people confusing "heresy" with "Gnosticism," but that many are also
        confusing "heresy" with "anti-church" and "anti-establishment"
        resentment. Maybe it's just me, but is seems like all
        these "freethinkers" are missing the boat rather than rocking it
        whenever they jump on the nearest bandwagon to point out what it is
        that they're AGAINST. Perhaps it takes too much effort to actually
        articulate what it is that they stand FOR.

        Gerry
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